These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Forums

 
Capture Portrait
  • Date of Birth: 2014-06-13 20:52
  • First Forum Visit: 2014-06-25 11:49
  • Likes Received: 0

Areen Sassel

Security Status 0.8
  • Dirac Angestun Gesept Member since

Last 20 Posts

  • PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP in EVE Gameplay Center

    Frylord wrote:
    I'm so tired of people assuming a large part of the rising price is due to these mysterious trillionare speculators, I see no proof.

    Well, go and argue with those people about that assumption, not with me. One of them wrote "If they try to sell for lower than it's currently going for, it'll just be bought up in bulk and relisted for the current prices", an assumption that enough speculators with enough capital exist to buy up any increase in supply on the assumption the price will continue to rise. You can probably find that one quite easily.

    I haven't assumed that. I've tried to cover multiple possible reasons for the rise.
    Quote:
    Let's put that into rough figures.
    Let's say there are 20k unique subbed accounts accounts, 20% play via PLEX. Of those 20%, half can't afford PLEX now. So roughly 2k players stop playing. Would anyone notice? Would "whales" stop supplying the market?

    Indeed, depending on the figures you put in your sheer guesswork (although 20k unique subbed accounts is obviously much too small) we can suppose it's not a problem. With a different bit of guesswork we can suppose it is. That's why I say I don't know if this is actually a problem (and you don't know either), and just discuss possible courses of action in the case that it is.
    Quote:
    Until the margins for SP trading become too small, PLEX isn't going to stabilise.

    I've said this exact thing upthread more than once, so I have no idea why you feel the need to point it out as if it will come as a revelation.

  • PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP in EVE Gameplay Center

    Frylord wrote:
    You look like Lucy Liu.

    There are worse problems to have.
    Quote:
    Areen Sassel wrote:

    Easy to say that, but there's the rub. The whales presumably like to have someone to play with - and if demand is diminishing because poors are leaving, and yet the price is still staying high, that suggests supply might be decreasing as well. (Of course there are other explanations, primary amongst them that speculators are still buying all the PLEX they can lay their hands on.)

    I don't believe Eve has whales, i.e where 10% of the playerbase subsidises the other 90% like in most other F2P games.

    Let's not wrangle over terminology. There are three kinds of players here; ones who buy PLEX with real money, ones who buy PLEX with ISK and have a shortage of ISK, and ones who pay cash for their subscription (or are vastly space rich) and don't care. My concern is that the type-1 players do after all want someone to play with, and if a large proportion of the type-2 players leave, they may leave as well, something that could turn into a death spiral (and if that is happening, CCP might well feel the need to intervene drastically). Given that some type-2 players must be leaving and yet the decrease in demand hasn't affected the price, I wonder if this might be happening.
    Quote:
    I would honestly love to see the statistics of how many people keep their accounts in omega state via PLEX vs subscription.

    So would I.
    Quote:
    It's pretty basic economics why PLEX prices have risen and why there is literally nothing CCP can do about it. Should they artificially limit how much a PLEX can be sold for? Everyone would just use contracts.
    Should they inject PLEX into the market? If they try to sell for lower than it's currently going for, it'll just be bought up in bulk and relisted for the current prices.

    I'm not sure you prove your point that there is "literally nothing CCP can do about it" by bringing up and dismissing the proposal for a price cap, which is obviously unworkable.

    It is not at all clear to me that increasing the supply wouldn't have an effect. Speculators speculate only because they themselves expect the price to keep rising. If the price rise is driven by speculation it is in effect a bubble, and an indication that CCP might be acting to burst the bubble would make speculators very cautious.

    That said, I think it's mostly skill farming keeps it high. I'm not sure what can be done about that because nothing will decrease the price of SP except massively increased supply, and as I recall part of the original idea behind skill extraction was to decrease the vast quantity of SP already in the game...

    Giving characters a limit on the ratio of injected to trained SP would be an extremely drastic move (and would take some time to take effect since presumably that isn't tracked at the moment so all extant SP would have to be treated as trained) but would presumably cut the demand for SP considerably, which if it is SP farming which keeps the PLEX price high would have an effect. (Hell, if the situation is bad enough, stopping selling skill extractors [1] would do it.)

    I'm not saying that should be done, because I have no idea (and neither does anyone else in this thread) as to whether we are in a "poors leave because PLEX too high -> whales leave because no-one to play with -> price still high -> poors leave" death spiral. But CCP has an idea, and if I were CCP and I thought that was happening, I'd be considering drastic action of that kind.

    [1] Yes, I'm not stupid, I know CCP make money on them because they cost PLEX. But if that short-term gain is killing the long-term prospects, it might still be worth doing.

    ETA: Or CCP could limit the supply of skill extractors and sell them for PLEX to the highest bidder, reducing the supply without such an effect on short-term income... and producing a truly hilarious outflow of fury from SP farmers.

  • PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP in EVE Gameplay Center

    Frylord wrote:
    People who keep their accounts subbed via PLEX don't pay CCP, and the people who keep the market supplied with PLEX will continue to do so regardless of whether some F2P players unsub or not.


    Easy to say that, but there's the rub. The whales presumably like to have someone to play with - and if demand is diminishing because poors are leaving, and yet the price is still staying high, that suggests supply might be decreasing as well. (Of course there are other explanations, primary amongst them that speculators are still buying all the PLEX they can lay their hands on.)

    Spare me the usual imprecations; I have always paid cash for my sub and never bought or sold a PLEX for ISK, so I don't have any personal motivation here.

  • Sales in Thera in EVE Gameplay Center

    Kosomot wrote:
    I appreciate your spirit however here is my problem with Shopping in Thera; docking in Thera is death. Everytime i've docked (because i misclick), and then undock, before the outside world loads i'm locked and dead.


    That seems unfortunate. Someone's buying this stuff, though - people for whom the outside world takes less than the 30s immunity time to load?

  • Sales in Thera in EVE Gameplay Center

    I've been shipping some stuff into Thera, having found that there's a certain amount of trade in some items. So far, so good. However, what's I'm doing is a bit of guesswork (not wanting to look at every item on the market) and then seeing what's got a significant trade history. What that doesn't tell me is what would sell but doesn't because no-one's selling it.

    So, WH types - if you give me an indication of what you might want to buy in Thera if it was available, I'll give a bit of consideration to bringing some in, if one can fit a sensible value of it in a covops or Sisters ship.

    I appreciate for many of you this is basically irrelevant (eg if you've got a high static you can just do your shopping as and when it pops out somewhere handy), sorry about that - but someone's buying stuff in Thera and this seems the most likely place they might be reading.

  • 500mill loan for 2 weeks in EVE Gameplay Center

    j slam wrote:
    still need help


    I daresay. For starters, the Shift key is often found on the sides of the keyboard.

  • 500mill loan for 2 weeks in EVE Gameplay Center

    j slam wrote:
    please post offrer and when i pay u back


    This has got to be the nadir of loan requests already, but here the OP has 10 billion to spend on a character, one of many offers of billions they've made. Where'd it all go, OP?

  • Economics in EVE Gameplay Center

    Ash Beldrulf wrote:
    I am having issues with the New Eden Economy. The better part of all items on the market are losing ISK. The builders can not replace the minerals/materials used to build most items at the current market prices. Why would any players build items and lose ISK?


    Because there is a constant supply of useful idiots who think the minerals they mine are free. You can't compete with them, so arrange to be buying the stuff they make.

  • PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP in EVE Gameplay Center

    Alexi Stokov wrote:
    Scialt wrote:
    I'm not sure if that's necessary or not... but if CCP decided they needed to drop the price of plex... then simple give every subscribed account X number of plex. The price will drop. Pretty simple.

    Unless you're sarcastic....CCP makes money off of PLEX. They would never do this.


    Scialt knows they sell it, obviously, and while I don't think this is a remotely likely remedy (albeit that there are PLEX drops in the current event, a first), if you'd read the thread you'd understand the rationale. If they think a very high price reduces player count and long-term income, they might very well be willing to take a short-term hit to avoid that long-term problem.

  • Black Rose Fleet Systems Fundraising in EVE Gameplay Center

    StarterrorPrime wrote:
    Of course likey anyone needing a little hope, I got roped into an Alliance and ended up losing my ass on that since there wasn't any money to be made applying my trade in said alliance, proving to be a Giant isk sink in itself so I got out of that steaming mess.

    Anyone who doesn't read C&P can read that tale of hilarity here. Potted summary: you can't manufacture and sell to individual members of an alliance the same ships the alliance gives them for free, who knew?
    Quote:
    Preferred Customers will also be considered as Non-Targets for BRFS Fleet Operations, if a war declaration occurs between a preferred customer's corporation, we will put you as low priority on targeting

    Bit of a paper tiger, this; when you say "we" that's not strictly accurate. Your membership is down from the giddy heights of "two" it has reached in the past.

    Cute begging letter, though.

  • PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP in EVE Gameplay Center

    yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
    It is established that CCP own, hold and control the whole of the market. This statement is correct but the conversation ( as you correctly point out) is whether CCP should intervene to stop rising plex prices.

    I think we started with simple feasiblity - someone mentioned the reintroduction of confiscated PLEX, you said "one off, not a long-term price effect", I said "not if they keep doing it". Nothing about "should".
    Quote:
    We can both agree that the market has no real hands off state but if we assume this position then the answer to this whole thread is that all of our points are meaningless.

    I think it is interesting to discuss what could be done and what the outcome might be - and I don't think the discussion is any more or less interesting if we label one course of action "intervention" and the other "no intervention".
    Quote:
    Past interventions have little relevence in this environment however, because the price change is driven by the fundamental change in plex.

    I think they do. I mean, you're undeniably right that there's been a change in demand resulting from the new facilities, and that's not going away, but an ongoing decision to reinject ban-confiscated PLEX would produce a change in supply that wasn't going away either.
    Quote:
    If fewer sub then reduce the plex requirement to guide behaviour in this direction.

    Well, there's a difficulty here - besides the possibility of a drastic price crash brought on by an anticipated drop in demand - we've had an understanding for years that the PLEX:gametime ratio is unchanging. If it can be changed, it can be changed both ways, and PLEX are no longer an investment with an inherent value that can never be lost.

    Lower the cash price? All very well, but it immediately hits the balance sheet (although of course if it brings in more players in the long run, worth it).

    The advantage of the confiscated PLEX scheme (after all, there's nothing magic about the number confiscated, CCP could print as many as they liked if they thought it would raise revenue in the long run) is it reassures the people with hoards of the stuff that the extra supply is of a definitely limited size.

  • PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP in EVE Gameplay Center

    yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
    Pretty sound reasoning except you have omitted a large part of the argument. Plex is no longer used for solely for subscriptions. CCP indeed owns the inputs and outputs of the market and therefore controls the market I agree but you are asking for intervention on a single asset to yield the price you would like for a purpose that suits your specific needs.

    No, I'm not asking for that. Personally I don't care about the PLEX price one jot - I pay for my subscription with cash money and always have, bought my character transfer PLEX and MCT PLEX with cash money, don't use New Eden Store cosmetics nor skill injectors or extractors. I'm not asking for anything, there isn't a price I would like, and this is nothing to do with my needs or wants.

    I'm discussing an idea that was mooted in the thread - and the other thing I'm pointing out is that calling it an intervention is a bit misleading because anything CCP does - even nothing - is equally well them manipulating the market. It doesn't have a natural hands-off state.
    Quote:
    Another significant point is that the plex to real currency exchange is more favourable. If you purchase plex to sell this is a good time, there are many benefits to this outcome. Players can raise more isk and more fundamentally CCP can raise more income which in turn helps to fund development and continue the game.

    This is obviously true in the short term, but equally it seems likely that a high price will cause a decline in the number of players, but a high player count helps keep everyone interested. If a bunch of poors leave, that may cause whales to leave (and meaning there's not a net change in the ratio of supply and demand) - making this a bad thing in the long run. I imagine CCP have a better idea of what might happen than we do, which is why it's interesting that the suggested intervention has been done in the past as a response to a rapidly rising PLEX price.
    Quote:
    Just to clarify I think at this point the market needs to correct and not be corrected.

    It's misleading, I think, to refer to doing one thing as a "correction" and not to doing another thing. It's all equally artificial.
    Alexi Stokov wrote:
    I don't know why CCP would reintroduce confiscated PLEX.

    If you had read the discussion above you would know the answer - as a response to rapidly rising PLEX prices, just like they did last time.

  • PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP in EVE Gameplay Center

    yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
    Areen Sassel wrote:
    Not if they keep doing it (and keep handing out bans). It would seem fair enough - every 500 PLEX bought means a month of gametime, rather than some disappearing into a void - although of course it's nicer for CCP's bottom line in the short term to have those PLEX just disappear.

    This idea has two different parts, the reinjection of confiscated assets (which are deemed to have been gained by illicit activity) and the decrease of demand by banning more players.

    I didn't really have the second part in mind (and I don't imagine the decrease in demand from banned players is significant). I was only observing that to have a constant supply of PLEX from banned players, they must continue to ban players.
    Quote:
    The first question is of morality. Should we use assets gained by exploits?

    A banned player's PLEX, unlike perhaps their ISK and other assets, are not ultimately the product of an exploit, but an ordinary PLEX purchase, so I don't think the question arises. [1]
    Quote:
    If we do then this would increase the supply and drive down cost. This would also improve the marginal utility of players increasing demand throughout the markets (less spent on plex more to spend on other assets). This would increase inflation , trade and industry becomes more profitable, plex becomes even more affordable, more demand, prices rise and back to higher equillibrium.

    I wouldn't expect an increase in supply to return you to the same equilibrium point, no, which is what you seem to be saying. A lower price can't increase demand to the point where the price isn't lower, and yet continue to increase demand.
    Quote:
    Why ask CCP to subsidise free play? The players mange the market just fine.

    I think these paens (this isn't the most obvious one, to be fair) to leaving the market in its natural state are overstating the case, for all the OP's proposed remedies were clearly unworkable, and it's not clear there's an actual problem from CCP's point of view.

    The market doesn't have a natural state; CCP can't _not_ interfere. They decide the manufacturing inputs to every recipe, the drop rates of every dropped item, the price of skillbooks and blueprints, etc - and specifically here, the RL cost of PLEX, the PLEX cost of ex-Aurum items, and the amount of gametime PLEX gives you.

    Deciding to return banned players' PLEX to the market is interfering, but just as much is permanently removing it from the game interfering. The decision is only how to interfere.

    [1] Yes, one can imagine an exploit that manufactures PLEX, and in that case you'd expect the cloned PLEX to be removed from the game regardless.

  • Smack Talk Free Zone in EVE Gameplay Center

    Saeger1737 wrote:
    Best question, what's your favorite beer?


    Milton Minotaur, but they're a local-ish brewery...

  • Crime and NO punishment in EVE Gameplay Center

    Dracvlad wrote:
    Areen Sassel wrote:
    Now, I don't really believe the bit where CCP listen and take action, but isn't that sort of how it's supposed to work? It's like a conspiracy theory where the milk that turns up on the doorstep is allegedly brought by a milkman.
    Facts speak for themselves,

    But who cares? Suppose you're right, what have you got? CSM brings player concerns to CCP as intended, shocker. I admit that's a bit unusual in practice, but it's hardly the story of the century.

    What's next, the startling revelation that the bright light in the east every day is caused by sunrise?

    As an addendum, I think if I found not-Nitshe-honest was my main cheerleader I'd seriously reconsider my position.

  • Crime and NO punishment in EVE Gameplay Center

    Galaxy Pig wrote:
    /whole thread


    You forget the fascinating conspiracy theory where people allegedly talk to the CSM who allegedly talk to CCP who allegedly listen to them and take action.

    Now, I don't really believe the bit where CCP listen and take action, but isn't that sort of how it's supposed to work? It's like a conspiracy theory where the milk that turns up on the doorstep is allegedly brought by a milkman.

  • Crime and NO punishment in EVE Gameplay Center

    Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
    Considering the Third Rule ("always project") and that they like to wind up players, get them to rage or meltdown, then take the convo and bandy it about like a trophy says a lot about the ass cancer (oh noes Herzog is attacking cancer sufferers that total sh*tlord!)


    I admit there's a certain elegant self-sufficiency to saying something silly, imagining that someone was offended, then berating your imaginary friend for the imaginary taking of offence, thus sparing yourself the need for anyone else to want to participate in this little farce - but wouldn't it be still more efficient to do it in your own head, rather than cluttering up the forums with it?

  • PLEX price (ISK) out of control to CCP in EVE Gameplay Center

    yamoshi Yotosala wrote:
    TheSmokingHertog wrote:
    CCP is still sitting on large quantities of confiscated PLEX, if CCP would desire, they could reintroduce them to the market. They did once before.

    This would theoretically create a short term over supply and a short term fix. Once the stocks are exhausted then price should return to the new higher equillibrium.


    Not if they keep doing it (and keep handing out bans). It would seem fair enough - every 500 PLEX bought means a month of gametime, rather than some disappearing into a void - although of course it's nicer for CCP's bottom line in the short term to have those PLEX just disappear.

  • Dev blog: Introducing the new EVE Online Forums in EVE Information Center

    Jeremiah Saken wrote:
    Areen Sassel wrote:
    I'm not saying that ain't a plus point, but also as far as I can tell, worse on non-mobile devices - like the computers we all presumably have to play EVE on.

    Whole internet is going into mobile friendly you can't stop this trend.


    I'm not trying to affect the whole internet by posting here. I'm trying to affect the EVE forums, where - unlike the rest of the Web - we know essentially everyone reading them has access to a non-mobile device with a large screen.

    Of course, I don't expect it to make a difference, but it would be senseless not to give feedback.

  • Smack Talk Free Zone in EVE Gameplay Center

    Saeger1737 wrote:
    Smack free zone, so what do people think about playing the game in the nude?


    Given the weather we've been having here, I certainly hope it's OK.