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Invention
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Zlake
The Terminus Enclave
#1 - 2012-03-25 14:12:55 UTC
I'm have been running numbers. I have been finding it very hard to turn a profit unless you are making your own datacores via RnD. Even with setting up buy orders and waiting on someone to sell you the goods it seems like you would be loosing isk no mater what unless you got all the datacores and decrypters yourself. This is with max skills running it through meep and Caltech Shipyards.

Am I missing something here?
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-03-25 15:18:25 UTC
are you making ships?
Zlake
The Terminus Enclave
#3 - 2012-03-25 15:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zlake
Yup, and not doing mods because you need to manage them a lot.
Suni Khan
#4 - 2012-03-25 15:46:26 UTC
ships generally dont have a high profit margin. you are better off doing mods. small ships may have a little margin.
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-03-25 15:56:11 UTC
Zlake wrote:
Yup, and not doing mods because you need to manage them a lot.


easier=less profit :)

Modules have (mostly) steady if not spectacular profit, most t2 ships are break even/loss for a small producer, you'd be better setting up market orders for them and re-selling

IMHO and YMMV
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-03-25 16:06:16 UTC
Ships, are super razor thin on profit, because the market is saturated with them. Every inventor thinks, at one point, that because T2 ships are so expensive that there is huge profits to be made. This is a fallacy, the volume of sales is not there to support a high turnover, which leads to an oversaturation of the market. This oversaturation of product with low turnover leads everyone to slash prices to get rid of their overstocked inventory.

I know you stated that you didn't want to deal with modules, but I would look into it. I didn't log in for two weeks this month and I still made 500M profit off inventing modules.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#7 - 2012-03-25 17:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Zlake wrote:
I'm have been running numbers. I have been finding it very hard to turn a profit unless you are making your own datacores via RnD. Even with setting up buy orders and waiting on someone to sell you the goods it seems like you would be loosing isk no mater what unless you got all the datacores and decrypters yourself. This is with max skills running it through meep and Caltech Shipyards.

Am I missing something here?


Not missing a thing.

I gave up T2 Ship Invention 8 months ago because there is no competing with T2 Ship BPO's. Nor beating the 'free' Components made from the Technetium Moons ATM (a situation to be rectified before the year is out BTW Twisted).

5 mill profit on a 98,000,000 crane is f'***ed up IMHO. And a waste of time.

Glad others are seeing the light.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Brock Nelson
#8 - 2012-03-25 17:10:07 UTC
Frankly, it's going to get worse given that Soundwave said during keynote about moving datacore production from R&D to Faction FW LP store.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#9 - 2012-03-25 17:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Brock Nelson wrote:
Frankly, it's going to get worse given that Soundwave said during keynote about moving datacore production from R&D to Faction FW LP store.


All the more reason to avoid 'real' manufacturing to cash in on the Item du Jour instead : Fuel Blocks . Big smile

....and leave it to me to wait freaking 2 years to finally fire up R & D Agents last week, and then this news Evil

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-03-25 17:39:06 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Frankly, it's going to get worse given that Soundwave said during keynote about moving datacore production from R&D to Faction FW LP store.


Let us hope that increased datacore prices simply leads to higher t2 item cost and price, thats what ought to happen, no ?, inflation, t2 items are priced t a hell of a lot less now than before invention so maybe some price increase is deemed due
Samuel Tuffstein
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-03-25 18:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Samuel Tuffstein
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Zlake wrote:
I'm have been running numbers. I have been finding it very hard to turn a profit unless you are making your own datacores via RnD. Even with setting up buy orders and waiting on someone to sell you the goods it seems like you would be loosing isk no mater what unless you got all the datacores and decrypters yourself. This is with max skills running it through meep and Caltech Shipyards.

Am I missing something here?


Not missing a thing.

I gave up T2 Ship Invention 8 months ago because there is no competing with T2 Ship BPO's. Nor beating the 'free' Components made from the Technetium Moons ATM (a situation to be rectified before the year is out BTW Twisted).

5 mill profit on a 98,000,000 crane is f'***ed up IMHO. And a waste of time.

Glad others are seeing the light.


Roll

There are actualy quiet a few Tech two ships that are profitable to Invent, some of them need quiet a huge initial investment (Jumpfreigthers are obvious, however there are also others...).

If you don't want to, or simply can't invest 10 bil+ into Invention and still want to invent Ships then you should take a look at T2 Frigates.

You most likely not make as much money from Ship invention as you would make from Equipment, due to some already mentioned reasons, but you can make a nice bit of extra cash.

Am not going to tell you what to build, but since there are only 28 Tech 2 Frigates it shouldnt be to hard to figure it out.P
Suni Khan
#12 - 2012-03-25 20:23:01 UTC
dont tell him that. he may break into my market :(
Zlake
The Terminus Enclave
#13 - 2012-03-25 21:14:50 UTC
Well mods have a 1 hour manufacturing. 2 hours to invent. But means that the line must be managed every two hours. Don't see how people afford fuel unless they got 8 hours plus free time every day.
Stefanie Zheng
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-03-25 22:17:18 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Frankly, it's going to get worse given that Soundwave said during keynote about moving datacore production from R&D to Faction FW LP store.


Let's hope that Soundwave et al. sober up and realize that doing this for all datacores -- even with the stipulation that R&D agents will still give them out, just not as much -- is dumb and makes no sense from any perspective, be it lore or backstory, or the simple understanding that FW = warfare, not industry. Unless they are new, special datacores for something like faction ships (+new mechanics for constructing them, of course). Seems like they want to fix the passive income thing but instead of coming up with good sensible ways to fix the mechanic, someone came up with... that turd of an idea.

Also, OP, as others said: ships aren't worth it unless you want something like this. You have a bunch of ISK, not a lot of time or desire to manage industry jobs, and you are okay with getting a lump sum after a long-ish period of time that's far smaller than the sum of what you could have made inventing+manufacturing other things during that time, but it arrives after significantly less effort. Basically, it's like investing your money at a rather low interest rate (unless what you make actually loses you money, don't do that). OR you have a good deal of money not doing much in your wallet because you're at full manufacturing capacity producing smaller things that bring in more ISK/hr. A better way to make that money work would be to invest it in trade, but once again that requires more management.

Basically, if you want to make reasonable money, don't make T2 ships (there are exceptions, though).
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#15 - 2012-03-25 22:18:39 UTC
Zlake wrote:
Yup, and not doing mods because you need to manage them a lot.


Wait for ring mining to do ships.

.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#16 - 2012-03-25 22:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Zlake wrote:
Well mods have a 1 hour manufacturing. 2 hours to invent. But means that the line must be managed every two hours. Don't see how people afford fuel unless they got 8 hours plus free time every day.


8 hours?

He's so cute.

Dude if I'm trying to make money out of my empire pos I will literally be doing this **** 16 hours a day every 2 hours for 2 weeks barring sleep time - which I get really annoyed at stopping for ;)

And I run a small setup compared to many others, 3 toons, 3 labs, 4 equipment assembly arrays, 1 component and usually an X-Large ship (for freighter building). I've seen some poor bastards doing it pretty much non-stop for hours on end with multiple pos setups and a LOT more toons hehe

I WISH it were 8 hours lol This is part and parcel of what indy is trying to achieve this CSM I believe - CCP has to fix this ****.

It is really hard to make enough stuff to make enough profit after POS fuel and other overheads otherwise.

.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-03-25 22:48:51 UTC
Zlake wrote:
Well mods have a 1 hour manufacturing. 2 hours to invent. But means that the line must be managed every two hours. Don't see how people afford fuel unless they got 8 hours plus free time every day.


wat. I think you're setting up your jobs in the most difficult way possible if this is the conclusion you've arrived at.

Simple, simple scenario:

You're a T2 manufacturer. You are able to run 10 research jobs and 10 manufacturing jobs at the same time. You have a POS (since you're talking about fuel). At the POS you have 1 Mobile Lab and 1 Advanced Mobile Lab and, let's say, 1 Component Assembly Array and 2 Equipment Assembly Arrays if you make modules. 7 invention slots, 4 copy slots, 12 manufacturing slots. Each of these slots has a base time multiplier of less than 1 (e.g. 0.75 for equipment arrays) which means that, for example, your module invention jobs will take you 1 hour and 15 minutes each. Copies will be your bottleneck, you'll have to try and buy some if you make a lot of stuff, most likely. If you manufacture the full 10 runs from each BPC at a time, you can get your production rolling in one evening, most of which is spent not actually actively involved in the process (gotta click to start jobs, then you can just log off or go completely AFK for some time if you so wish). It helps to plan ahead so you're not scrambling to invent the BPCs in such a way that you only have 2 or 3 manufacturing at a time, that's just a waste of your capacity. You'll quickly find that spending as little as 100mil in Jita buying up materials can easily bring in 200mil profit in a day or two which you can then put right back into your business. That's after you spent only a few hours actually actively doing stuff. Not a bad deal, and you can actually generate even more profit than that.

And no, you kind of can't dive into T2 manufacturing without any planning whatsoever. Set up a system that works, though, and you're golden. And you can make your ISK mostly AFK, even while you sleep (I just love waking up to a greatly increased wallet as people buy up stuff I made while I'm catching my zzzz's during Euro prime time).