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Do we want the new graphics upgrade?

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Royk
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#101 - 2012-03-24 22:33:35 UTC
do want! +1 from me
Grukni
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#102 - 2012-03-24 22:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Grukni
Kal Azmir wrote:
Here are some facts about DX11:

a) DX11 has "feature levels ", which means you can have engine written using DX11, but it can run on DX10 and DX9 hardware, you just have to switch off certain features not supported by the hardware

b) DX11 has some very nice multi-threading features, which allows for multi-threaded submission of commands to the gpu as well as free threaded resource creation. These features are instrumental in achieving higher frame rates on multi core machines as well as loading assets like textures in without frame rate stuttering

c)It allows for some really awesome graphics :)


Most of what you saw in the demo can run on ATI as well, except for the PhysX stuff, that is Nvidia tech.

DX 11 is the next step for Eve engine, whether we like it or not.


Now for some of my observations:

The tessellation in the demo is not very optimal, there is no LOD technique (aka distance) implemented and some surfaces are tessellated even though they wouldn't have to be. Obviously this would be fixed when it makes it to Eve.

Unfortunately all that added geometry detail doesn't shine as much if you do not increase the texture resolution.


Good points.

I'd always thought that PhysX is done in CPU if no Nvidia card is pressent. I hope CCP optimizes the tesselation as you say.

Anyway, If only they could improve texture resolutions. It would be a big improvement even without tesselation. But I say go for it, and for the improved ship explosions, hull damage and shield impacts.
Lt Pizi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-03-24 22:48:00 UTC
physx can be done by cpu or gpu, you can even set theat in the controlpanel, or plug in an old card todo the physx

tesselerationis something completly different thean physx

physx is the shattering of theroids that hit the ship and the path they take

THAT SAID

pls do it ASAP

this is so much gainon performance and look that it shouldnd be a question anyway

Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume!
Rikki Sals
BioLogistics
#104 - 2012-03-24 22:52:04 UTC
Definitely for DX11. Better to get the work in on that sooner rather than later! I only have a DX10 card myself, but am planning to upgrade sometime this year anyways. Big smile

I really don't want to see PhysX implemented in a form that drives players into going with Nvidia GPUs for full support. Modern CPUs have more than enough brawn to handle physics simulations, but of course in the case of PhysX Nvidia has very little if any corporate interest in giving CPUs the same love, since requiring their GPUs for the "full" PhysX ends up amounting to hardware lock-in.
Obsidian Dagger
Nitrus Nine
#105 - 2012-03-24 22:52:08 UTC
Lt Pizi wrote:
physx can be done by cpu or gpu, you can even set theat in the controlpanel, or plug in an old card todo the physx

tesselerationis something completly different thean physx

physx is the shattering of theroids that hit the ship and the path they take

THAT SAID

pls do it ASAP

this is so much gainon performance and look that it shouldnd be a question anyway



I use my semi-retired 8800GT as my physx processor, and my new 560ti does the gruntwork.

However, at this time, EvE forces the CPU to handle the little bit of physx that is currently enabled, regardless of how you set your nvidia control panel.

Other games however get around 10%-30% performance boost just from the addition of a crappy old card.
Eian
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#106 - 2012-03-24 22:55:16 UTC
This will have to be done at some point or you might as well start digging a grave. Just man up and get it done and move on.
cyennajewelz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-03-24 22:57:08 UTC
the graphics improvement just since wis the end of last year look great.
the new graphics they showed at ff where even better.
as long as it's adjustable for lower end machines it will be a welcome change for sure.
i'll probably have replaced my old gtx260 by then anyway.
+1 do eet
Lt Pizi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-03-24 22:58:24 UTC
as i understaqnd it phsx is only used for avatar closthing for now and the hair mabe

Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume!
Kal Azmir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-03-24 22:59:59 UTC
Grukni wrote:
Kal Azmir wrote:
Here are some facts about DX11:

a) DX11 has "feature levels ", which means you can have engine written using DX11, but it can run on DX10 and DX9 hardware, you just have to switch off certain features not supported by the hardware

b) DX11 has some very nice multi-threading features, which allows for multi-threaded submission of commands to the gpu as well as free threaded resource creation. These features are instrumental in achieving higher frame rates on multi core machines as well as loading assets like textures in without frame rate stuttering

c)It allows for some really awesome graphics :)


Most of what you saw in the demo can run on ATI as well, except for the PhysX stuff, that is Nvidia tech.

DX 11 is the next step for Eve engine, whether we like it or not.


Now for some of my observations:

The tessellation in the demo is not very optimal, there is no LOD technique (aka distance) implemented and some surfaces are tessellated even though they wouldn't have to be. Obviously this would be fixed when it makes it to Eve.

Unfortunately all that added geometry detail doesn't shine as much if you do not increase the texture resolution.


Good points.

I'd always thought that PhysX is done in CPU if no Nvidia card is pressent. I hope CCP optimizes the tesselation as you say.

Anyway, If only they could improve texture resolutions. It would be a big improvement even without tesselation. But I say go for it, and for the improved ship explosions, hull damage and shield impacts.


Physx is indeed done on the CPU if there is no nvidia card present, however the last time I checked the CPU implementation was slow and unoptimized, but if CCP wanted the fracture of asteroids to work on any hardware, they would have to create their own implementation using Direct Compute.

The texture resolution depends on how their asset creation pipeline works, if they create much higher versions than used in game and scale them down then they can reuse the same assets to generate higher resolutions, if they don't then it would take them much more time to repaint everything.

Optionally, CCP could look into some form of virtual texturing to stream in data as needed, however that could be slightly problematic in EvE, as the viewpoint can change very rapidly.

Shield impacts are quiet easy to do, so I hope we see them soon.

Hull damage looked really great, I wonder if they use they same technique used in Left4Dead 2 for zombie damage.

I am also surprised they didn't advertise the fact that they will implement new anti-aliasing algorithm developed by Nvidia called TXAA, since Eve is on the list of games that will support it.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#110 - 2012-03-24 23:01:03 UTC
+1

Improvements are always great, but would not set +1 if said improvement is done on expense of performance
DarkXale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-03-24 23:01:48 UTC
Kal Azmir wrote:
a) DX11 has "feature levels ", which means you can have engine written using DX11, but it can run on DX10 and DX9 hardware, you just have to switch off certain features not supported by the hardware

b) DX11 has some very nice multi-threading features, which allows for multi-threaded submission of commands to the gpu as well as free threaded resource creation. These features are instrumental in achieving higher frame rates on multi core machines as well as loading assets like textures in without frame rate stuttering.

These two are important to realize. When there isn't an actual detail or significant graphics improvement thrown in - its not uncommon for a DX11 based game to run better than in pure DX9 mode. This applies even for the lowest end discrete laptop and HTPC GPUs. And in EVE, they if anything need all the performance bumps they can get.

It also, of course, allows for future scalability. If EVE is to continue - then at some point using new tech may be required.

Bear in mind, the MMO which must not be named, has added both DX11 support - which it doesn't use for meaningful graphics improvements, only the earlier mentioned performance advantages - and IPv6 support.
Lt Pizi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-03-24 23:06:18 UTC
txaa is done by the card if its not implemented codeside, maybe a bit more demanding

Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume!
Logan LaMort
Screaming Hayabusa
#113 - 2012-03-24 23:09:50 UTC
Yes, a thousand times yes!

I would buy a DX11 card for this and all the shiny that could be enabled.
Kal Azmir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-03-24 23:10:53 UTC
Lt Pizi wrote:
txaa is done by the card if its not implemented codeside, maybe a bit more demanding


I am pretty sure from what the developer documents on Kepler I read, TXAA has to be programmed in inplicitly and cannot the turned on in a driver, like FXAA.
Lt Pizi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-03-24 23:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lt Pizi
got it from the 300.xx driver release notes y---.-- ignore

edit: you are right , was mixing F with T

Goon Tears are best tears, because they're 25% alcohol by volume!
Kai Tel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#116 - 2012-03-24 23:18:40 UTC
Rikki Sals wrote:
Definitely for DX11. Better to get the work in on that sooner rather than later! I only have a DX10 card myself, but am planning to upgrade sometime this year anyways. Big smile

I really don't want to see PhysX implemented in a form that drives players into going with Nvidia GPUs for full support. Modern CPUs have more than enough brawn to handle physics simulations, but of course in the case of PhysX Nvidia has very little if any corporate interest in giving CPUs the same love, since requiring their GPUs for the "full" PhysX ends up amounting to hardware lock-in.


Well, you know that the PS3 graphics use the NVIDIA RSX Reality Synthesizer tech and the next gen console builds on it. PhysX included. So, don’t be surprised to see the PC client port of the upcoming EVE console launcher favor NVIDIA based hardware in PCs.
Kal Azmir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-03-24 23:19:48 UTC
Lt Pizi wrote:
got it from the 300.xx driver release notes y---.-- ignore

edit: you are right , was mixing F with T


Oh good, I though I was confusing stuff, anyways, here is kepler white paper:

Kepler white paper

It lists EvE as one of the first games to implement txaa, look at the comparisons in the paper with MSAA, this will make eve look much nicer.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#118 - 2012-03-24 23:21:34 UTC
im running AMD in my machine and im saying F**K YES DO IT!!!

+1
Dex Caliber
Iron Maw Speculation
#119 - 2012-03-24 23:22:29 UTC
Oh Hell Yeah!!! +1 Lol
Umarillian
Dead poets society
#120 - 2012-03-24 23:27:30 UTC
+1

As a multi-boxer who likes pretty things. I fully believe that this feature should have an auto-disable for when it isn't the current foreground object; Perhaps after a certain time ( optionally of course ).

But even if not... I can only imagine how giddy I'll get the first time I pop a ship with DX11 enabled.

DO WANT.