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Fanfest: War Declarations

First post
Author
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-03-24 16:02:28 UTC
These mechanics sound okay.

I'm fine with costs dependent on size of defender. Based on costs stated, deccing the Uni would cost 750M ISK (at current corp size.) I bet they start allowing alts into the corp to balloon the size. :)

Surrender mechanics sound okay. One side offers surrender, the other side has to accept. ISK can be involved and the accepting side gets the ISK.

They used an idea I wrote about a month ago (tho it could have very well been an idea on the table for much longer), the use of mercenaries by the defender. Defender can only bring in one defender/mercenary group.

They did not go with the consensual route. Wardecs can still be non-consensual between parties, so that's very good news.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-03-24 16:03:44 UTC
Tetragammatron Prime wrote:
wardec fee should be capped at 1bil or so

Agreed. Otherwise some corps will balloon numbers with alts they don't really play.
Diva Ex Machina
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-03-24 16:07:54 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


I'd still like to see more ACTUAL objectives.


Allow us to close an enemy office in a station as terms of surrender, for example.

Also, I think a 7 day peace period is too short. Make it a 14 days Peace Treaty.

What stops corp hopping to repeat war after surrender?

I.e.

Corp Griefer attacks Corp Carebear

Corp Carebear surrenders for 50M.

Corp Griefer jumps to Corp griefer B

Corp Griefer B war decs Corp Carebear to continue harassment.






I think it will be extremely foolish for any corp to surrender under these proposed mechanics, as their history will show that they surrendered, and that will immediately make them a nice, juicy target from that point on.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-03-24 16:10:22 UTC
Diva Ex Machina wrote:
I think it will be extremely foolish for any corp to surrender under these proposed mechanics, as their history will show that they surrendered, and that will immediately make them a nice, juicy target from that point on.
Any corp will quickly realize when they're being Surrender Trolled.
Liam Mirren
#85 - 2012-03-24 16:21:50 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
One or two allies can help. It quickly becomes financially infeasible. With Inferno it can become so cheap that you have a dozen of mercenaries helping out. And those can help out dozens of corps at once. This is absolutely not possible right now.


Yes but that's too easy and too much because that effectively means wardecs won't happen.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#86 - 2012-03-24 16:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Tetragammatron Prime wrote:
wardec fee should be capped at 1bil or so

Agreed. Otherwise some corps will balloon numbers with alts they don't really play.

1 bil is far to low as top-cap.

1 bil as minimum might be ok caped at 100 bil.

PS: and no I'm not trolling.
Even I can make 1 bil within 1 week SOLO with just one acc and nearly no playtime. So any dedicated wardec corp should be able to earn that much.

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Lithalnas
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#87 - 2012-03-24 16:34:20 UTC
this cost stuff is going to make PRVTRs rather expensive, if they keep the current pricing structure for alliance vs alliance wars that would be good.

Dont know about the implementation of 'Structured wars' if it means that we cannot wardec people for 1 week and let it run out then it makes the PRVTR model rather expensive.

https://www.facebook.com/RipSeanVileRatSmith shoot at blue for Vile Rat http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73406

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#88 - 2012-03-24 16:38:56 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Tetragammatron Prime wrote:
wardec fee should be capped at 1bil or so

Agreed. Otherwise some corps will balloon numbers with alts they don't really play.

1 bil is far to low as top-cap.

1 bil as minimum might be ok caped at 100 bil.

PS: and no I'm not trolling.
Even I can make 1 bil within 1 week SOLO with just one acc and nearly no playtime. So any dedicated wardec corp should be able to earn that much.

You realize how badly this would destroy the mercenary industry, right? Just because you can make money quickly doesn't mean you represent the majority of the player base. There's a whole lot of corporations out there who balk at paying on the lower end of a few hundred million for mercenary services, and that's before even taking the war fee into account.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#89 - 2012-03-24 16:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Tetragammatron Prime wrote:
wardec fee should be capped at 1bil or so

Agreed. Otherwise some corps will balloon numbers with alts they don't really play.

1 bil is far to low as top-cap.

1 bil as minimum might be ok caped at 100 bil.

PS: and no I'm not trolling.
Even I can make 1 bil within 1 week SOLO with just one acc and nearly no playtime. So any dedicated wardec corp should be able to earn that much.

You realize how badly this would destroy the mercenary industry, right? Just because you can make money quickly doesn't mean you represent the majority of the player base. There's a whole lot of corporations out there who balk at paying on the lower end of a few hundred million for mercenary services, and that's before even taking the war fee into account.

You do realize that cost is the only effective defense a target corp industry corp has?

I know many of you can't belive it, but there are actual many EvE players who enjoy mining+trading+manufacturing. And these guys don't just want to be target-dummys for you pewpew guys!

So if CCP refuses to give them a legit tool EXCEPT throwing ISK either to the attacker or random merc corp ... the price to grif them must be at a level where not every wannabe 2 youmad brother corp can wardec 1 bazillion indu corps at once.

If you wardec you should know what you do. If you know what you do 1 billion is nothing for you.
If you don't know what you do .. you shouldn't wardec at all.


And no, it's no option to tell them "wast your SP into stuff you don't want to do" <- was SP == was real time == wast real money in EvE !!!

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#90 - 2012-03-24 16:48:45 UTC
People should defend themselves by defending themselves.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#91 - 2012-03-24 16:51:10 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
As a casual solo player my only concern about this whole idea is that the corp infrastructure (roles) and permissions with POS operations is so screwy that it would be nice to have something better before this potential 'end of small corps' solution was implemented.

"Forced grouping" is what this appears to be geared towards, which is fine, but seems counter to sandbox ideology. Eh, bring it. We will all adapt, die, or unsub I guess.

I think you'll find that most small corps (1~10) that pretty much mind their own business aren't going to be threatened much by this, especially if you actually play the game. If someone wardecced me, for instance, I'd just move out to Syndicate/Outer Ring for a week and derp around. Tiny corps actually have a lot more options for mobility and denying the "deccer" their fun, and they're not going to be seen as juicy targets.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#92 - 2012-03-24 17:05:23 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
People should defend themselves by defending themselves.

Would you spent millions of SP into indu-skill just becouse some random nobody tells you to do ?

No you wouldn't as you would consider the time you invest into something you don't like to do as WASTED!

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Vince Snetterton
#93 - 2012-03-24 17:08:41 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
MadMuppet wrote:
As a casual solo player my only concern about this whole idea is that the corp infrastructure (roles) and permissions with POS operations is so screwy that it would be nice to have something better before this potential 'end of small corps' solution was implemented.

"Forced grouping" is what this appears to be geared towards, which is fine, but seems counter to sandbox ideology. Eh, bring it. We will all adapt, die, or unsub I guess.

I think you'll find that most small corps (1~10) that pretty much mind their own business aren't going to be threatened much by this, especially if you actually play the game. If someone wardecced me, for instance, I'd just move out to Syndicate/Outer Ring for a week and derp around. Tiny corps actually have a lot more options for mobility and denying the "deccer" their fun, and they're not going to be seen as juicy targets.


Sure, and all the small indy corps that have a POS or 2 up, they will have no problem shutting down operations for a week or 2?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#94 - 2012-03-24 17:15:50 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
You do realize that cost is the only effective defense a target corp industry corp has?

I know many of you can't belive it, but there are actual many EvE players who enjoy mining+trading+manufacturing. And these guys don't just want to be target-dummys for you pewpew guys!


What about the times a rival industrial corporation wants to eliminate its competition by hiring muscle to put the squeeze on their operations?

What about the times an aggrieved player wants to hire some mercenaries to shut down a griefer's activity?

What about the times when some corporation undergoes an internal theft, and wants to exact revenge on the thief?

See, the assumption you're working on is that every single war that happens is purely a grief war. Well, you know what they say about assumptions...

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#95 - 2012-03-24 17:18:53 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Sure, and all the small indy corps that have a POS or 2 up, they will have no problem shutting down operations for a week or 2?

Well, that's your own problem to figure out, now isn't it? I have an indy alt in a friend's corp and I imagine we'd be all for getting a bit of action defending our small research tower, even if it got destroyed. Besides, most pr0 deccers would probably rather kill a faction tower, so I'm not really worried about our space assets.

Don't make yourself a target unless you're able to defend yourself.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#96 - 2012-03-24 17:54:59 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Tetragammatron Prime wrote:
wardec fee should be capped at 1bil or so

Agreed. Otherwise some corps will balloon numbers with alts they don't really play.

1 bil is far to low as top-cap.

1 bil as minimum might be ok caped at 100 bil.

PS: and no I'm not trolling.
Even I can make 1 bil within 1 week SOLO with just one acc and nearly no playtime. So any dedicated wardec corp should be able to earn that much.

You realize how badly this would destroy the mercenary industry, right? Just because you can make money quickly doesn't mean you represent the majority of the player base. There's a whole lot of corporations out there who balk at paying on the lower end of a few hundred million for mercenary services, and that's before even taking the war fee into account.


Flipping your sentences:

You do realize how badly this will destroy the industrial industry right?

Industry's ammo is money, you are better to be prepared to fight against their defense.
Valkyria Caeli
Doomheim
#97 - 2012-03-24 17:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkyria Caeli
These sound like great changes for corps that can and are willing to fight back. Much better system in principle but doesn't do much for small corps wanting to just stay out of the gunfire.

I always though that wars should be about territory. In the case of Hisec it seems like that should be PI, Moon bases, POSs and perhaps anything that is anchored. Basically, if you don't want to be dec'd don't put down roots anywhere. The baby corps would be protected but they would also be limited on what they can get into. Also, any corp that doesn't have anything to fight for wouldn't be able to declare war. You can't get into the game if you don't pay for chips. On the other hand. A corp, or even an individual that sets up PI or something else should be able to be pushed out of the system by a competitor that declares war. Destroying your opponent's facilities also give the war clear goal. This way you don't avoid wars by hiding in NPC corps, rather you could only avoid war but limiting what you build. It would make people think twice before anchoring a GSC.

Also, if others can bribe Concord to allow a war then why cant you bribe them to make it go away?
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#98 - 2012-03-24 19:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ban Bindy
It's not worth the time to try to build anything in this game, meaning corp, infrastructure, or whatever. I think NPC corp will be the solution for me if I stay in the game at all. I'm sick of taking grief from other players and dealing with war decs I don't want. I've tried to help build a newbie corp with my main for over two years and every war dec brings a fresh stupid loss from the new players who just don't get Eve, and who rightly don't just want to dock up for a week during a war dec when they're paying to play a game. We've had 40-50 wars while I've been playing and we've done badly at nearly all of them because we have tried to take in new players to make corp chat fun and to help them learn the game that we were (once) passionate about. Our war record will always identify us as a target.

There's obviously no room for people like me in this game and maybe it's time I faced it. I get enough consequences from my life, I don't need them from a game that's supposed to be fun.

These new war dec rules just substitute one bad set of war dec rules for another. The system will just grief our corp in a different way.

The ally system is about the only bright spot. But it will be used to scam members, I expect, and will hurt as much as it helps.

A week for a war is far too long. The cost is not nearly high enough to be a deterrent. The

Oh, why bother. I don't even think I care any more.

LATER, AFTER READING THE OTHER CHANGES: Okay, what I wrote here is wrong. I had not read about the other changes coming to high sec in terms of can flipping, concord response, etc. Now that I have a better idea of the total changes that are coming, I think the war dec changes will work, too. My main wish was that high sec should become safer for new players so they will stay in the game long enough to learn it. I think the new high sec rules can make that possible. I am impressed, actually. This is a good plan in its online.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2012-03-24 19:20:22 UTC
I just woke up to find both that Darius is our CSM representative again and that this news has dropped.

I have not pawed through the guts of this very seriously yet, but at first look it appears to be solid. I mean, obviously that assumes that dec scraping and corp-hopping goes away along with it. Unless I missed that part.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#100 - 2012-03-24 19:25:30 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Oh, why bother. I don't even think I care any more.

Yeah, no one else does either. You're obviously too terrible at this game to be teaching newbies how to make their way, please just leave the game.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.