Crime & Punishment

Damnit, I'm a bigshot too!!!!




btw, I agree with Skunky.
oh and everyone post on your main in this thread if you would :)

As someone who was there, i see a lot of discussion about tears in this thread and very little on the content that we presented. Would anyone like to challenge Alek's assertions about logi mechanics? Or My comments on the babied highsec generation? Or how about that whole discussion on the topic of wardecs, better wardecs and how we know stuff is broken as is?

This thread is supposed to be constructive and get the attention of CCP. I know at fanfest you discussed a few things but really, we still have no clue what is going to happen to highsec PVP as a profession.

I already did three times. I guess this makes four:

Pirates, griefers, scammers, and all around ne'er-do-wells etc etc so on and so forth, constantly come into "carebear threads" where people, often newbies, are complaining about getting dicked. Often the pirate, griefer, scammer, (henceforth known as "scum") tells the carebear "HTFU! EVE is a game of CONSEQUENCES and RISK and CHOICES and TEARS." Then great fun is had by scummies extracting more tears and frustration from the carebear.

Now the tables are turned: A once consequence-less profession (being scum) now has real* consequences, real risk behind it, and the scummies want to cry and whine about how unfair it is.

*Losing your ship and sec status was not a "real" consequence because a) you were prepared for it and you could still make more money from a gank than you lost and 2) people with low sec status usually haunt low-sec and null-sec where they can easily grind it back up with their buttbuddies. Can-flipping had no consequences outside of, maybe, their Corpies coming out to shoot at you, but that was also factored into the activity. Most times they warped off, but sometimes you made a kill and some ISK and got to goad them afterwards. In short: When you don't care about the consequences they cease to be consequences. Scum has had a free run in EVE and now the tables are turned and the scum is crying about it.

INB4 "I won't answer you because you weren't respectful enough!"

It is perfectly reasonable to expect these folks to be fair and see both sides of the issue and be excellent advocates for both sides. I'm sure CCP reognizes the honor that exists among them and will receive their messages with all due respect.

AAAAHHHHHH AHAHAHA - GUFFAW HOOOHHAAAAHHHAHAHAHA ahem.... (stands back up and dusts off the suit)

All due respect in this instance means CCP is laughing their asses off, too!! These mental deficients look at the issue as though it was a football field and believe - they are so deluded, that they truly believe they are standing on the 50 yard line - the exact middle of the issue, the top of the bell curve... The reality is they are so far down past the endzone, that they are really in the parking lot. In statistical terms, they are what is known as outliers - points of data on the standard bell curve that are so extreme, they are just a few dots way over on one side, just barely on the sheet of paper. They are as far away from the central view of the issue as it is possible to be.

Listen to the recording? I hope I managed to load the wrong recording. I tried, but the convo is banal, so lurid, so profanity laden, so full of unfounded conjhecture, so full of wolf tickets - it is ridiculous. I'd like to think they are sincere, but I have no evidence of it from past behaviors or current events. I can't imagine they have the collective sense to have entered into a conspiracy to produce this silly recording so they could "scam" the world into thinking they are sincere to just to give themselves another vial of tears. I think they are just all huffed up with their false bravado and inapprppriate sense of importance and think may actually be taken seriously.

I think CCP can count and when they are looking at projected losses on their tally sheet, they will be glad to see these guys go so they can have a better chance of retaining the players they have spent so much money to lure into their first paid monthly sub. I do not know the number, but I can tell you the management at CCP has it figured down to the penny just how much money is spent on advertising, trial account expenses, discounts and specials just to get the average new player to plop down their first monthly sub fee. They can then look at the number of players who leave the game after one, two, maybe six months of paid sub time and know if one player fills out the "I'm quitting because" questionnaire with griefing as the reason, that they can be statistically sure how many others left for the same reason and with enough disgust to not bother filling out the questionnaire. That is all part of basic market analysis. I'll bet Hilmar, CCP's CEO, can even recite the number of lost potential players which can be attributed to each different reason given on the few exit questionnaires that are completed by the friend's of potential players who left unhappy. This is not rocket science, this is just basic market research. No one can can seriously think CCP is relying on the CSM to provide all that data. If they were, CCP would not be asking those who close an account to complete a customer satisfaction questionnaire.

Oh, they are partying at the top of the world right now and all buddy-buddy, but then it will be back to business - the really serious business of internet space ships. The world of profit and loss. The hard look at what brings in and keeps customers happy and what drives them away angry, will be back at the front of everyone's mind. And crappy recordings will be just that - crappy.

It is generally not a good policy to let criminals decide when they've been punished "enough".

But it will a good policy to hold everybodies hand in highsec?


EDIT: Like I said, in the end I will wait and see what the final outcome is. At that point people just need to adapt and continue if they Choose.

No, that was good.

First of all, I want to say that no one should take people who say stuff like "HTFU! EVE is a game of CONSEQUENCES and RISK and CHOICES and TEARS" seriously. It doesn't matter what side they take; these peoples' opinions are insignificant simply because they're not constructive.

And now, to address your point:

Without going through different actions, and the consequences they lead to in a line-item manner, I'll just give a more general answer.

The balance between actions and consequences isn't a matter of game mechanics in a sandbox environment. Any and all game mechanics that allow the "scummies" to pick on the "carebears" are universally available to all players. There are no barriers to entry aside from player attitude. The sole, true consequence of any action in EVE is the ability of your victim (or other people in general) to do the same thing to you. For example, losing security status might indeed be superficial for ganking an expensive hauler or mining barge, but that doesn't mean that CCP must (they can, but it would certainly diminish the game's sandbox characteristics) create additional safeties for the victims. The only consequence that matters is that the victim might seek retribution against the person who wronged him by employing the same means that were used against him. A person who got suicide-ganked can suicide-gank the ganker.

However, there already exists a collection of safeties that generally skew game play in favor of the victims. Aside from flipping the flipper's own cans, the person who gets flipped also has fifteen minutes to bring his whole corporation upon the flipper. Aside from being able to suicide-gank a person who has blown up his ship, a player who lost a ship to a suicide-gank has a whole month to track down his killer and destroy him without police intervention (on top of CONCORD immediately destroying the ganker's ship). Et cetera.

However, the people we define as "carebears" have seldom exercised their rights to employ the same gameplay mechanics to get back, or even preempt, the ones you define as "scummies." That is their choice, their decision, their play style. Being scum has always had real consequences and real risk. In no objective terms can the cowardice, complacency, and ineptitude of the people who choose not to learn the rules and game play mechanics of EVE Online be blamed on the people who do.

I'll add that it's not enough that his game live, but it must retain its uniqueness. This is the only MMO among hundreds that allows unfettered player interaction and lets that interaction have meaning. It also means that the players that give these issues more critical thought and who do their homework more thoroughly gain an advantage from that, rather than just players that have spent more time grinding for honor points. It allows players to be dangerous because of their personal abilities, rather than their skillpoints.

Thanks for that Psychotic monk and guys. Interesting listening to the thoughts and comments from the evil piwates that try and play hisec pvp on the broken and game mechanics that need to be fixed. I agree with the comment that EvE is a game based solely on player interaction at all levels. I have mined in hisec, but all the while mindful that I can be ganked for S and G its not risk free, just risk reduced the way it should be not, come to hisec and not be ganked, pah that would take the challenge out of the game.
dec scraping I'm amblivient on, I can understand why some smaller corps see it as a god send but the corp im part of has never backed away from a fight. Though the idea of dec shielding is kinda nice it into an exploit highlighted the shortcomings of it almost straight way, having a no risk way to back out of a fight to me appears almost cheating, BUT if your a small corp that is constantly being wardeced by some of the self confessed scumbags in the round table I could understand why it would
be attractive.
the other stuff I don't know much about to be able to comment quite honestly, though the suspect flag and taking a sec hit if someone shoots and you and you kill them seems stupid, surely nicking some ore then being flagged to be killed by anyone nearby would be enough without that penalty. agree on that one.