EVE General Discussion

I have been using T3 links ever since Apocryphia

The eve community seems to be under the impression that the main problem with links is that :

You can put up links in a safespot, should be ongrid to commit to battle

T3's fill too many roles, amazing scout and links, easy to move with your gang

Able to put up links in POSes, and generally in safety, links present at all times to those that want aslong as they stay in system

This is a tunnel vision that the community and perhaps CCP has had for a while towards link ships, the notion that they are very risk averse ship, which is ofcourse true but

The main problem with them is the fact that they are by far the biggest force multiplier in the game

What's wrong with making them only ongrid? It doesn't do enough, they will still be used to the same extent as today - sure it would be more realistic and it would be great to see when links are in action, but the main problem will still persist, the bonuses that links give are way too much

So lets throw some numbers at you and discuss what implications this has for the game


A standard CFC Maelstrom fit

So with 4 Scimitars repping it, with 3 reps each, no overloading -

Without links - 135k EHP, 4k reps

With links - 162k EHP, 7.6k reps

Presence of links pretty much changed 4 scimitars into 8, obviously in these fleets far more than 4 scimitars are used, such a ship could potentially represent 15+ ships in term of effectiveness

For solo/very small gang, an active tanked Maelstrom with crystals -

Without links - 1.6k tank

With links - 3.26k tank

In terms of active tanking, you could call links super crystals or something, without links/crystals, it's a 1.05k tank, the amount links add in comparison to a 2b investment is so massive. It's also worth noting that linked active tanked ships has definitively made it seem active tanks are stronger than what they are, making fixing them less attractive.

It's true that links can accommodate for crazy/fun fits, 100mn ab cynabal anyone? but sure this is fun, not fair on rest of players

What implications does this have for the game? Well for starters, it makes a lot of groups more risk averse and more prone to bring more dudes, or in some cases make some people just not want to pvp, which is completely understandable if their opponents use links as it's such a huge force multiplier, and often, an unseen one

As mentioned today in CCP Ytterbium's presentation on ship balancing, fleet formats gets so fine tuned and there's not much variation, and this is a problem, I do actually believe links contribute to this somewhat

Fleet formats these days for the most part are very defensive, combined with logistic spam and links, their main priority is to stay alive, which is completely understandable, the two most common fleet formats used to their greatest effectiveness today are CFC's + Solar fleet Artillery Maelstroms, and Tengu spam, the latter is the most defensive one, it gains full bonus on both sets of links, skirmish and siege. While the Artillery Maelstroms format adapts to the over defensive nature of eve due to alpha (durr!), obviously not as effective against tengus due to Skirmish links though

So what points am I actually trying to make?

Links have overtanked eve
They're pushing away some non link users away from competitive small gang pvp
Less variation in fleets

In terms of skirmish links on a Loki, signature radius and speed link is self explanatory in a lot of situations especially tengu like formats

But in small gang, the massive range you get on your warp disruptor and web is so huge, there's two bad points for this, going back towards the defensive route, you take SO much less damage from most gang formats at 42km than you would at 28km, and at that range you're not at all committing to the fight, you always have a better chance to escape tackle. And people are just not expecting a tackle at that range, being webbed at 25km by a 90% web sucks, or tackled at 53km by a Vagabond, it's a bad design

But why am I whining about this right now?

Two points, Tiericide and ship balancing, and Crimewatch

Tiericide and ship balancing, is going to attract a LOT of bittervets and new player alike to pvp with the rebalanced ship, who wouldn't want to fly a bellicose and not get laughed at ?!

Crimewatch is going to pull a lot more inexperienced people into pvp, mainly because pvp is going to be so much more accessible than it is right now

Considering the heavy use of links right now, wouldn't it be a damn shame if those guys tried out pvp, die in a complete fire, and then just decide pvp isn't for them? or maybe decide solo/small gang pvp is not for them and become more risk averse

It's true, I am making a lot of assumptions here, especially with how links have shaped fleet pvp, but the negatives that comes with it is true, it's doing much more bad than good

So what would I actually change about them?

Well it's very simple actually, instead of 100%~ bonus to your tank through active tanking/logistics, it should be more on the line of 20%. It would still give fleets an incentive to use links, but make small gangs, especially solo players, much less incentive to use them. And nerf skirmish links to the same degree

Sure this would nerf commandships even more, they might get fixed some day, but I think the problem with links is a MUCH bigger issue

Please show your support if you agree, and if you do not agree, please post too, but god damn look at the numbers they give

tl;dr


[A BUNCH OF EXAMPLES HERE]
[THIS IS MAKING LINKS A REQUIREMENT TO PVP COMPETITIVELY AND INFLUENCING FORMATS THIS IS BAD]
[CHANGE THEM LIKE THIS]

That is all because it would hurt your play style too much

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Thinking extreme force multipliers encourages small gang pvp is completely delusional, it's the complete opposite

How can such a stellar PVPer be so incoherent?

Links are imba. Making them on-grid only is a big step in the right direction and is better than nothing. Getting rid of all leadership skills would be better.

(And I just started my Cha/Wil remap last week.)

Sorry but where exactly did I imply this?


I'm not even sure if they're going to do this, in fanfest it was said it's a bit hard to do due to coding and all that, sure it would be a step in the right direction but it wouldn't completely fix the issue, I would adapt, as other people will



Accept my apology if I was hard to understand, if you could point out what parts I had problems with I'll try and fix it

I agree that it isnt fun fighting against a gang that has 100 km points and webs and this should be fixed.

I would agree with this. T3 links may be a bit OP and off-grid boosting has always been stupid, but the links themselves are fine, IMO.

I do a lot of skirmish fleets these days - the biggest fleet we can field is like 20 people and the space we roam through the local sov holders can scramble twice that on a moment's notice. A well-coordinated fleet with links can engage a blob 2, 3 times its size only by good use of the bonuses granted by links in their current form. Long point range, long web range, and speed bonuses to GTFO when the time comes.

I just don't see how it's necessary - in big fleet fights everyone will have links anyway so it's moot. 1v1 has always been about who can out-fox the other more than anything else. In a small gang a sleipnir will **** you up because it's a sleipnir, not because it's giving a link, though that might help.

As someone who does a lot of solo, single-account PvP, I don't have the benefit of uber-links following me around all over the place. Yeah, I know, boo-hoo, sucks to be me, right?

Except that kinda sucks gameplay-wise for someone who really does want to go at it alone. I shouldn't NEED a T3 alt account or a gang to back me up in order to be competitive.

If I see a potential target but I also see some T3 hanging out in space, I'm likely to move on instead of engaging. I happy to take a risk, but I'm not interested in just throwing away isk.

The real real issue is active-tanking is weak, far too weak. EHP has only grown with the rig changes. Coupled with the fact that mobility is key and shield rig drawbacks are nothing compared to armour ones, and that armour rigs are just plain more expensive too while shields also regen for free, and I can't help but feel that local rep setups should be far more powerful than they are atm relative to buffer fits, especially armour. Increasing them would increase the engagement envelope of all the solo & small gang peoples, and not unbalance fleet/sov fights.
Yes you'd likely have more 'stalemates' where 1 can on paper tank 1, but then there's always something to decide the outcome in a mirror match: range control, neuts, sentries, SP and module management, even previous cap charge & heat usage carried over to the current fight.

Improve active tanking so it doesn't need links to be sane to fly about, and then you can nerf link bonuses.

And remove ECM.

And buff damps. And nerf the Tengu, the Drake, the Cane's PG, Angels. And buff the cloaky legion. Etc.