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WoD and DUST never borrowed EVE devs, but EVEApocrypha borrowed WoD/DUST devs
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RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2011-09-17 14:29:09 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Quote:
very simply maths


You have all the variables then?

Lets see them.


You will never get them cause CCP would then show that they have indeed miss allocated resources.

Heck seems they are trying to bury info especially with the cancellation of the annual reports to a yearly report. Shortly after the Incarna boondoggle.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#82 - 2011-09-17 14:39:46 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Quote:
very simply maths


You have all the variables then?

Lets see them.


You will never get them cause CCP would then show that they have indeed miss allocated resources.

Heck seems they are trying to bury info especially with the cancellation of the annual reports to a yearly report. Shortly after the Incarna boondoggle.



Right. Which takes the argument from "simple maths" to "complex assumptions". Which is my point.
Astir Zekor
Doomheim
#83 - 2011-09-17 14:48:13 UTC
Heh, truth is eve is neglected and will be so in forseable future.

Consider few things:
- what level of changes, and with what quality they were released
- considering earlier consider starting quality of wod and dust and "amount of flesh on those bare bones"
- considering earlier consider amount of emergency fixes, patches, redesigning to make those two projects enjoyable .. emm passable
- considering earlier consider how much dev power eve can get and when

Just my little train of though that combined with Nex made me go bye bye on subscription (i find this forums more fun than actual game and hang in here till the sub run off).
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2011-09-17 15:01:16 UTC
Denidil wrote:
CCP Fallout wrote:
Baralosus wrote:
Eve development resources have been shifted to focus on Dust514 and World of Darkness. What you are seeing is a slowed down progress because of this. If CCP is able to afford hiring more people to work in the art development aspect, then I'm sure they would be doing that right now. I believe that they cannot afford expanding their staff when they have too much development resources tied up with other games (that which is not currently generating any revenue) and an old game (Eve) that is starting to show signs of age, and possible decline.

But I'm all for putting in more development for Eve. I could care less how they do it as long as they find something that works.


I respectfully point out that you are wrong, sir, and ask that you not listen to skuttlbutt. We do not move EVE devs out of EVE. In fact, when we did Apocrypha, staff from WoD and DUST were moved to EVE. These kinds of things happen quite often, where we may borrow resources from WoD or DUST and use them in EVE.

Additionally, we are a company of 600 people, of which, we have quite a number of resources working on EVE.


thought this should be pointed out more widely.

thanks for the info Fallout!

original post https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=11056&find=unread


You can say what you will, but the money to pay for all the devs currently comes from eve, so eve resources are being spent elsewhere. Perhaps in the future eve may benefit from dustwad resources, but for now that's not the case. BUT... spin on to your hearts content!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2011-09-17 15:50:11 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Quote:
very simply maths


You have all the variables then?

Lets see them.


You will never get them cause CCP would then show that they have indeed miss allocated resources.

Heck seems they are trying to bury info especially with the cancellation of the annual reports to a yearly report. Shortly after the Incarna boondoggle.



Right. Which takes the argument from "simple maths" to "complex assumptions". Which is my point.


Assumption is not a dirty word, much to the contrary of how you are trying to present it.

The assumption being made based on current evidence that we have access to has turned up with the most likely correct assumption. You can make correct and logical assumptions without simple maths.

Which will also most likely be proven true if we had access to the actual resource allocation information on projects and as to who and what is being worked on.

Its a safe assumption that they have not put the minimum necessary needed resources into the flagship product. As others have already pointed out they have expanded staff and yet none of that expansion was allocated to EvE but to the new projects alone. And they pulled staff over the years from EvE to work on other projects. Or worse yet pretend the incrana team is working on eve when its actually WoD masquerading Incarna as true EvE content. When its clear its an Alpha test for another game at our expense.

So again Incarna is being worked on by WoD staff. They are not the actual EvE staff but Staff abusing the other product as some kind of alpha test and abusing the paying customers that want to play EvE. Which is utter rubbish from most any way you look at it. They made the game we pay for worse off to test tech for another game. Most of us are not fooled by what they are doing.

There is no fungibility in what they are doing here with the resources at their disposal.

Ill add that they technically actually do owe the paying EvE customers at this point. CCP has created a DEBT they owe the EvE community due to the lack of content and game play we have been paying for without much to show for it.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#86 - 2011-09-17 15:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: AFKCloaked AltSpy
Quote:
Assumption is not a dirty word, much to the contrary of how you are trying to present it.



No no no no no no no no no no NO.

Assumption is what everybody has to work with when they don't have all the variables.

I have to assume also.

But as I said, that changes the entire scenario. When everybody is assuming it is 100% opinion at that point. Its not a simple equation.

for example;

Quote:

There is no fungibility in what they are doing here with the resources at their disposal.


You have no idea what resources they have at their disposal, or when or where they were allocated. You have a general idea of how many employees work there.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2011-09-17 16:06:24 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Quote:
Assumption is not a dirty word, much to the contrary of how you are trying to present it.



No no no no no no no no no no NO.

Assumption is what everybody has to work with when they don't have all the variables.

I have to assume also.

But as I said, that changes the entire scenario. When everybody is assuming it is 100% opinion at that point. Its not a simple equation.

for example;

Quote:

There is no fungibility in what they are doing here with the resources at their disposal.


You have no idea what resources they have at their disposal, or when or where they were allocated. You have a general idea of how many employees work there.



Too bad then that the assumptions we are making have a prepoderence of fact backing them up.

Not having the specific hard data on the time clock of employees is not needed when we have enough evidence laying about that backs up the mismanagement of resources.

Or were you not around during the protests? Where streams of information were collected. And posted on many blogs?

I have to say you are just being willfully obtuse about all this.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2011-09-17 16:30:55 UTC
I know it's popular to think that EVE is financing WoD and DUST514. But the fact of the matter is that these games are likely being financed through debt, and not through EVE subscriptions. Hence the reason why there was talk in MD about how CCP is going to deal with a loan payment due in October.

Of course people are too busy saying "woe is me" and too attached to the idea that CCP's sole purpose in life is to screw over their customers to understand how business projects are financed.
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#89 - 2011-09-17 16:32:12 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Quote:
Assumption is not a dirty word, much to the contrary of how you are trying to present it.



No no no no no no no no no no NO.

Assumption is what everybody has to work with when they don't have all the variables.

I have to assume also.

But as I said, that changes the entire scenario. When everybody is assuming it is 100% opinion at that point. Its not a simple equation.

for example;

Quote:

There is no fungibility in what they are doing here with the resources at their disposal.


You have no idea what resources they have at their disposal, or when or where they were allocated. You have a general idea of how many employees work there.



Too bad then that the assumptions we are making have a prepoderence of fact backing them up.

Not having the specific hard data on the time clock of employees is not needed when we have enough evidence laying about that backs up the mismanagement of resources.

Or were you not around during the protests? Where streams of information were collected. And posted on many blogs?

I have to say you are just being willfully obtuse about all this.


1. If you have some of the information, you still have to assume.
2. You didn't post any of the evidence you are talking about in this thread, so saying it is backed up with the preponderance of fact is a fallacy.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#90 - 2011-09-17 16:34:45 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Right. Which takes the argument from "simple maths" to "complex assumptions". Which is my point.
No, it doesn't.

600 employees, three games vs. 300 employees working on three games. The only assumption was that when they focused on Apoc, they shifted ⅔ of the resources over to EVE. The simple maths is this: ⅓ of f(600) = ⅔ of f(300), where f(x) simply means "minus overhead".

In fact, the math is not just simple, but naïve — the relative overhead for 600 will normally be lower than for 300, and the whole thing doesn't even include stuff that benefits all three games at once, so really, it's ⅓ of f(600) ≥ ⅔ of f(300), and yet, those 300 managed to do more than the 600 have done. So either they have huge issues with their overhead, or they are, indeed, not putting a fair share of the resources into EVE.
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#91 - 2011-09-17 16:47:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Right. Which takes the argument from "simple maths" to "complex assumptions". Which is my point.
No, it doesn't.

600 employees, three games vs. 300 employees working on three games. The only assumption was that when they focused on Apoc, they shifted ⅔ of the resources over to EVE. The simple maths is this: ⅓ of f(600) = ⅔ of f(300), where f(x) simply means "minus overhead".

In fact, the math is not just simple, but naïve — the relative overhead for 600 will normally be lower than for 300, and the whole thing doesn't even include stuff that benefits all three games at once, so really, it's ⅓ of f(600) ≥ ⅔ of f(300), and yet, those 300 managed to do more than the 600 have done. So either they have huge issues with their overhead, or they are, indeed, not putting a fair share of the resources into EVE.



There are 600 people there now. Please list when they were hired, what they were hired for, and how much CCP pays to employ them in total. Also please list CCPs assets and liabilities, and monthly net income. Every one of those factors is critical in coming to an informed conclusion about CCP's allocation of resources.

Because the fact that the GMs arent developing python scripts is really disturbing.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#92 - 2011-09-17 19:42:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
There are 600 people there now. Please list [yadda yadda]
…none of which matters, which is the beauty of the simple-to-the-point-of-naïvety maths.

Yes. There are 600 people there now. Just like there were half that many then. Want to add complications now, then guess what, you can add them back then as well and the two will be comparable again.

What matters is this: a doubling in people should mean at least a doubling in the development resources available (or they're having problems with overhead). Double the resources should be able to do what ⅔ of the original resources could do. We're not seeing this. So the question is: are those resources not distributed properly or are they having overhead issues?

People are guessing the former.
That is all the argument is about: given what we know about the evolution of the company, why aren't we seeing the kinds of releases they were able to deliver with far fewer people at their disposal in the past, when really, logically, they should rather have become the norm by now?
Quote:
Because the fact that the GMs arent developing python scripts is really disturbing.
Quite the opposite. It only strengthens the argument.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2011-09-17 20:32:10 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
I know it's popular to think that EVE is financing WoD and DUST514. But the fact of the matter is that these games are likely being financed through debt, and not through EVE subscriptions. Hence the reason why there was talk in MD about how CCP is going to deal with a loan payment due in October.

Of course people are too busy saying "woe is me" and too attached to the idea that CCP's sole purpose in life is to screw over their customers to understand how business projects are financed.


They got those loans because they had a successful product called EvE. So yes it is financed through our subs as the leverage to get the loan to begin with.

We understand how it works very well.



It All comes down to the plain and simple fact that they overextended. And while doing that created huge negligence to the very game and players that made them.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2011-09-17 22:04:27 UTC
if what you say is true its worse, this means 90% of the eve devs are worthless.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2011-09-22 21:24:41 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
[quote=AFKCloaked AltSpy][quote=RougeOperator][quote=AFKCloaked AltSpy][quote]very simply maths

Ill add that they technically actually do owe the paying EvE customers at this point. CCP has created a DEBT they owe the EvE community due to the lack of content and game play we have been paying for without much to show for it.


Wrong, you do not buy content or game play, you buy server access time. Content is a free download, and gameplay is what you make it. Eve does not have resources, CCP does and they do not need to report to you on how they use them. I understand what you are saying about time invested in the game, but if you've been playing games as long as I have then there are other games you have also invested hundereds - thousands of hours in that eventually died or you eventually lost interest in. Everthing has a beginning and an end and if the management of the company bothers you enough or the game play as it exists does not interest you enough then stop throwing your time away.
Zeomebuch Nova
Undrinkable Grog Inc.
#96 - 2011-09-22 22:00:35 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:


I respectfully point out that you are wrong, sir, and ask that you not listen to skuttlbutt. We do not move EVE devs out of EVE. In fact, when we did Apocrypha, staff from WoD and DUST were moved to EVE. These kinds of things happen quite often, where we may borrow resources from WoD or DUST and use them in EVE.

Additionally, we are a company of 600 people, of which, we have quite a number of resources working on EVE.



I find that comment rather disturbing, as we should never expect quality content as the one we ve got with apocrypha.
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#97 - 2011-09-23 01:16:04 UTC
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:
CCP Fallout wrote:


I respectfully point out that you are wrong, sir, and ask that you not listen to skuttlbutt. We do not move EVE devs out of EVE. In fact, when we did Apocrypha, staff from WoD and DUST were moved to EVE. These kinds of things happen quite often, where we may borrow resources from WoD or DUST and use them in EVE.

Additionally, we are a company of 600 people, of which, we have quite a number of resources working on EVE.



I find that comment rather disturbing, as we should never expect quality content as the one we ve got with apocrypha.


It was the expansion with the most bugs to date like it or not.

Being an Apocrypha fanboi is useless. It had a lot of content so people "loved" it. We get it. It had a lot of borked content.
Zeomebuch Nova
Undrinkable Grog Inc.
#98 - 2011-09-24 03:12:24 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:
CCP Fallout wrote:


I respectfully point out that you are wrong, sir, and ask that you not listen to skuttlbutt. We do not move EVE devs out of EVE. In fact, when we did Apocrypha, staff from WoD and DUST were moved to EVE. These kinds of things happen quite often, where we may borrow resources from WoD or DUST and use them in EVE.

Additionally, we are a company of 600 people, of which, we have quite a number of resources working on EVE.



I find that comment rather disturbing, as we should never expect quality content as the one we ve got with apocrypha.


It was the expansion with the most bugs to date like it or not.

Being an Apocrypha fanboi is useless. It had a lot of content so people "loved" it. We get it. It had a lot of borked content.


More content means more bugs from the dev department, there is no black magic there. By the way, I'd take that in exchange for more fis content any day.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#99 - 2011-09-24 04:19:29 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Yeah thats a dodgy argument that doesn't really refute anything people have gotten annoyed about.

CCP has one current income stream and thats Eve Online.
Any resources raised by Eve and spent on other projects represents resource taken from Eve.
Doesn't really matter if they are Dust devs or WOD devs they are paid-for-by-eve Devs.

So I wouldn't really go making triumphant threads about this stuff.




you really don't know jackshit about business, do you?



Losing your temper and posting silly flames on the forums does little to argue your own competence either.


I like'd both of your posts. Because they were both good.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#100 - 2011-09-24 13:52:44 UTC
so... correct me if i'm wrong, i might well be...

CCP owns white wolf now... right?

so... to counter the argument that they have only 1 income source.

Vampire
Werewolf
Mage
Exhalted
Hunter
(is there a fae or wraith one? not sure)

these are games that are still purchased and played.
add to that the fact that white wold still recieve some degree of funding from their legacy PC games...

flaming CCP for diverting resources to make new games is like flaming wizards of the coast for diverting money from magic the gathering products to make DnD 3/3.5/4 (ok.. you can flame them for 4... :P )

diversity breeds advancement, stagnation breeds decline.

CCP will likely lean much from creating Dust and WoD.. and that which they learn can be used to improve EvE.

let CCP diversify. it will be worth it in the end.

- Rok

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.