EVE General Discussion

That would be pretty hilarious if you imagine the server going though a list of 20 logis, each of whom has 19 other logis and 20 normal ships aggression. Because to check logi 1 it would have to check logis 2-20, and 20 combat ships.

And to check logi 2, well it has to check logis 1, 2-20, and 20 combat ships.

Depending on how fast it goes, we hope it won't have to recalculate for logi 1 before it finishes calculating for logi 20. Does it update every second? Because (especially in TiDi) I imagine there wouldn't be too much problem checking 800-20 (39*20) timers before having to recheck. But wait! timers also change depending on client (player) behaviour, obviously and if there is lag, you might have problems getting all the "right" information in (similar to the old "modules not working" in lag bug)

If the server goes too fast it might trip over itself when updating (tries to update logi1 before it has gotten to logi 20). Which might cause desync, but I don't know if anyone would notice a desync of aggression timers even on a nullsec gate. TiDi might still get around it, though oddly depending on the above, a bunch of repping might affect the TiD iamount if you pass some sort of threshold and suddenly the server can't keep up with constantly checking what your timer is (which is presumably does even if you are not on-grid with a station/gate).

Huh. Well you're thinking CCP thought ahead. I don't know if there would be problems in large fleet battles but hopefully they tested it with like 20 logis and 50 drakes shooting 20 logis and 50 drakes rather than just a logi and a drake on an undock.

Because simply adding code might be easy in one's mind, but the jump mechanic has been around forever so who knows what hidden mine you might blow up by just adding bits to it. They might have to do a bunch of testing to make ssure they don't break juming in general.

Eg: You slot it in the wrong spot.

Situation 1: Select a gate 500km away and click jump. You enter warp as the gate it 500km away. Then because you are in nullsec, you jump. While warping, that is.

Situation 2: What if you were in a bubble? You can't warp because you're being interdicted. Then because you are in nullsec, you jump.

I support this change. Neutral repping in HS is mainly used as a tactic by griefers. Glad to see this coming.

So let me get this right.

I fly logi and I want to take part in combat by repping someone.
But I DON'T want to be the target of the agression because, god forgive it, I might lose my ship?

Like said over and over for years.

Don't fly what you aren't willing to lose.

So basically the logi costs more and therefore should have different rules to make it easier to fly?

The logi isnt stuck on grid. He can warp away just like the dictor can. He can even cloak just like the dictor can. The only difference is that if you launch a warp bubble you cant immediately dock or jump the gate. You CAN repair and then immediatly dock/jump. That is wrong.

There is alot of stupid in this thread...

You can still engage on gates...

When logi reps they take the timer of the aggressor not a new timer. Basically if you fired and a bigger fleet jumped you everyone deagress and wait out timer to jump. Logi will only have the timer of the last aggressor. You do not recieve a fresh timer for each rep, you take on the timer at the very same time as the last person to aggress. All this will do is make sure logi are last to leave field. All logis will be able to jump at the same time as the last person to agress. Now if you have some idiot who leaves out drones it could get hairy.

The only difference you will see is no more fights on gates where logi can bounce back and forth threw the gate when they take to much dps, which will deff make a change to small gang pvp on gates (Home Def fleets etc)

Please read the tread B4 you say stupid things...

+1 For a good change which will give a lil life to high sec

P.s Will be good fun to watch high sec station humpers try to have a ton of logi repping, and smart guy with alt corp full of arty fit nados who come in and insta pop everything..

Yes cost matters. Dictors are generally viewed as disposable ships. They also are used in a drive by manner, warp in drop bubble, burn and warp out while Logi is sitting there on grid trying desperately to get reps on friendlies before they pop. A bubble is also an aggressive act while repping is a defensive. Also logi has to do their work on the hostile side of a gate while a Dictor trying to delay a force can easily jump through drop bubble then warp off. Logi's don't typically fit cloaks it's a wasted slot and the targeting delay pretty much destroys their ability to do their job effectively.

Basically the two activities are so dissimilar that comparing them is pointless.

A logi that's covering a retreating fleet has to sit on the outbound gate until their fleet is able to jump through, also if they are repping in that situation they have no control over whether or not one of the morons in their rep chain did something stupid to reset their timers (all it takes one idiot forgetting to recall a drone or accidentally shooting the gate to leave your entire logi force stuck.

Frankly it's hard enough to find people to fly logi under the existing circumstances, no killmails no indication of participation while risking expensive skill intensive ships. add suicidal to that list and good luck convincing people to fly them.

Oh and honestly I don't see why dictors shouldn't be able to jump after dropping a bubble either it's not like they're particularly hard ships to kill.

I swear some of you people think your entitled to a kill simply by logging in. Battles that revolve strictly on who has the most dps buffer will be boring. Force multipliers like Logi and ewar make things interesting and allow for a wider range of strategies and tactics. They provide a means for a smaller well organized force to counter larger blobs with sufficient skill. But you'd reduce it to the point where the only determining factor of a battle would be who could bring the most DPS to bear and that would be dull.

ITT: I can't have my cake and eat it too.


So you want to be able to continue to rip fleets off on a null sec gate with RR, but in high sec on a station it's some big deal that logi can just poof?

Hypocrites.

No what the supercap nerfs show us is that price should not be an I win button that can only be countered with more of the same. Logi isn't an I win button it can and is regularly countered by a number of additional means including alpha, ewar and simply overwhelming force

To be clear the point of this thread isn't about defending neutral RR. I'm just trying to ensure that the potential side effects are addressed.

The propagation of shared aggression timers is one of those things that sounds great at first brush but I see some pretty serious potential problems with it and have some questions that should at least be considered in the discussion.

For instance what happens when the pilot who's aggression was propagated dies? is the logi's timer still there or does it go away with their target. If it stays that makes it a harder decision on whether to risk being stranded on a gate with hostiles and no way to fight back is worth trying to save the friendly ship.

It makes it much more difficult to determine when to jump, you could easily end up in a situation where you are chain repping to cover a retreat then the pilot with the longest remaining timer dies and that timer is still applied to your logi. in the mean time the combat ships in your fleet who have full control over whether they have a timer or not clear their timers and jump out leaving the logi stranded with no support of their own.

These decisions will have effects on the general risk calculations in all sorts of PVP scenarios, people are generally less likely to engage if they don't see a chance for victory or at least survival. The ability to dock up immediately while repping results in more RR ships (particularly carriers) engaging actions that would not be considered otherwise, that can and often do result in destruction of the ships in question. (The CFC killed more than a couple WN. carriers that thought they'd hop out and RR before re-docking only to get alpha'd by the maelblobs)

This is the point I keep trying to get people to understand in discussions of mechanic changes that will supposedly improve the "risk vs reward" of an action. People stay focused on theoretical risks that people will never engage in (like taking an officer fit faction BS into low should L4s be moved there exclusively) while ignoring the positive effects risk mitigation has on the matter (With L4s in high sec you can suicide gank the officer fit faction BS's that people actually use because of the lower perceived risk)

Is it really an improvement if removal of the ability for Logi to dock up instantly causes people to be less willing to engage on stations and gates at all? (they are the two main places there PVP takes place after all) How many fights happen because a logi pilot is willing to undock to support a fight against poor odds because they know that if things go badly they have a chance of docking up. (note the use of the word "chance", mistakes happen, people screw up and logi's still manage to die on stations and gates as things stand now)

In the end I'll work around what ever changes end up going through just like I've worked around or through every other change CCP has implemented that I thought was ill conceived

Hell it's possible (however unlikely) that CCP has actually giving my concerns great thought and that my worries have already been addressed.

But I really think that people are so caught up on the "Neutral RR BAD!!!" thing that they aren't looking at the big picture of the situation outside of those circumstances mainly due to ignorance of how RR is used in other places even the Null guys pipping in don't seem to be experienced logi pilots

Consider Del's comment. Del is a good friend and I generally respect his opinion but his experience with RR is extremely limited. R-V-B doesn't generally use RR and so most of their experience with the mechanic comes from dealing with fail deccing Neutral RRing ganktards who run at the first sign of anything that could put up a fight and tend to roll with 3-1 neutral RR to combat ship ratios. The existence of the RR mechanic doesn't really affect their game play in anyway but negative so it's no real surprise he'd be cheering this on.

If I were confident that this change would only affect Neutral RR in high sec I'd have no objections whatsoever. But I'm not confident of this, not given CCP's history or the lack of a wider perspective most of the people discussing the issue have shown.

I stand corrected, my apologies.

Further if the change were actually implemented like this, so that it's effects were limited to empire I would happily support the change, though I'd prefer this change to the condition.

if system sec status <5 and timer >0, no jump
else jump

No problem, such things happen online. And I do understand your concerns as well. These things can be overomce in a straight forward way, that's all I hoped to illustrate.