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RR Changes

Author
Adunh Slavy
#41 - 2012-03-23 13:05:56 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:

There there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms



Would probably be less thread time for this new system. It's more linear, we're not talking about that many conditionals compared to the pile of noodles we have now. Surely null sec can be taken into account easily.

if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jump
else jump

done.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#42 - 2012-03-23 13:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Skex Relbore wrote:
There there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms

That would be pretty hilarious if you imagine the server going though a list of 20 logis, each of whom has 19 other logis and 20 normal ships aggression. Because to check logi 1 it would have to check logis 2-20, and 20 combat ships.

And to check logi 2, well it has to check logis 1, 2-20, and 20 combat ships.

Depending on how fast it goes, we hope it won't have to recalculate for logi 1 before it finishes calculating for logi 20. Does it update every second? Because (especially in TiDi) I imagine there wouldn't be too much problem checking 800-20 (39*20) timers before having to recheck. But wait! timers also change depending on client (player) behaviour, obviously and if there is lag, you might have problems getting all the "right" information in (similar to the old "modules not working" in lag bug)

If the server goes too fast it might trip over itself when updating (tries to update logi1 before it has gotten to logi 20). Which might cause desync, but I don't know if anyone would notice a desync of aggression timers even on a nullsec gate. TiDi might still get around it, though oddly depending on the above, a bunch of repping might affect the TiD iamount if you pass some sort of threshold and suddenly the server can't keep up with constantly checking what your timer is (which is presumably does even if you are not on-grid with a station/gate).
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:

There there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms

Would probably be less thread time for this new system. It's more linear, we're not talking about that many conditionals compared to the pile of noodles we have now. Surely null sec can be taken into account easily.

if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jump
else jump

done.

Huh. Well you're thinking CCP thought ahead. I don't know if there would be problems in large fleet battles but hopefully they tested it with like 20 logis and 50 drakes shooting 20 logis and 50 drakes rather than just a logi and a drake on an undock.

Because simply adding code might be easy in one's mind, but the jump mechanic has been around forever so who knows what hidden mine you might blow up by just adding bits to it. They might have to do a bunch of testing to make ssure they don't break juming in general.

Eg: You slot it in the wrong spot.

Situation 1: Select a gate 500km away and click jump. You enter warp as the gate it 500km away. Then because you are in nullsec, you jump. While warping, that is.

Situation 2: What if you were in a bubble? You can't warp because you're being interdicted. Then because you are in nullsec, you jump.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-03-23 14:34:35 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
[quote=Skex Relbore
There there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms[/quote


Would probably be less thread time for this new system. It's more linear, we're not talking about that many conditionals compared to the pile of noodles we have now. Surely null sec can be taken into account easily

if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jum
else jum

done.



You are ignoring the process of determining the value for your timer variable. Which is a far more complex process

It would have to see if any in ship in your rep chain has a timer then compare the values of those timers to see which is highest then apply that then check again and again and again doing this simultaneously on all the logi.

The current check is easy timer is reset to 60 seconds every time a hostile act occurs and it's always 60 seconds, with the proposed system it would be what ever the longest timer in your rep chain is.

The first "virus" to ever crash a network was the result of the unintended effect of a similar mechanic.

http://virus.wikia.com/wiki/Christmas_tre

The creator of the virus wasn't trying to create a virus they just wanted to create a simple email Christmas card that would be sent to their friends. Then they had this brilliant idea to have it forward that message to all their friends' friends. The problem the creator didn't consider was that in addition to the all the recipients other contacts was generally a contact for the sender themselves. So the email was sent out pulled out the contact info and would forward to everyone on the list including the sender then all the recipient computers would go through the same process again sending not just to additional contacts but to the person who sent it to them creating this endless loop that brought the network to it's knees.

The intentions were good (send a Christmas greeting to their friends and spread joy onwards), the results were bad (killing the entire network) not through malice but from simply overlooking one simple variable


It's also the sort of effect that could easily go through testing and not show up because singularity doesn't have the population and conditions to test it properly. It's possible the mechanic could behave perfectly fine on smaller scale engagements but strangle the node on a really large scale fight


This is what worries me with the proposed RR changes, that something simple like that is wasn't considered. That the focus on the problem from the perspective of ending neutral RR will preclude consideration of the mechanic from other legitimate perspectives

As much as I'd like to believe that CCP has thought through all these factors, history just doesn't justify that level of faith.

(hell they can't even implement a forum save feature that doesn't screw up quotes)
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-03-23 14:44:35 UTC
I support this change. Neutral repping in HS is mainly used as a tactic by griefers. Glad to see this coming.

Don't ban me, bro!

Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-03-23 14:49:08 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
I support this change. Neutral repping in HS is mainly used as a tactic by griefers. Glad to see this coming.


Reading comprehension, you fail at it.

This post isn't about Neutral repping it's about potential knock on effects the change would have on targeted boosting in situations where neutral RR isn't an issue (Mostly low and null sec)
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#46 - 2012-03-23 14:49:12 UTC
So let me get this right.

I fly logi and I want to take part in combat by repping someone.
But I DON'T want to be the target of the agression because, god forgive it, I might lose my ship?

Like said over and over for years.

Don't fly what you aren't willing to lose.

Del DelVechio
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#47 - 2012-03-23 14:55:47 UTC
Ignore Skexs' tears. Best thing ever....

Del
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2012-03-23 14:59:02 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:


dictor 25-50 mil
logi 170-200mil

Dictor drive by
Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer

So basically the logi costs more and therefore should have different rules to make it easier to fly?

The logi isnt stuck on grid. He can warp away just like the dictor can. He can even cloak just like the dictor can. The only difference is that if you launch a warp bubble you cant immediately dock or jump the gate. You CAN repair and then immediatly dock/jump. That is wrong.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-03-23 15:22:12 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
So let me get this right

I fly logi and I want to take part in combat by repping someone
But I DON'T want to be the target of the agression because, god forgive it, I might lose my ship

Like said over and over for years

Don't fly what you aren't willing to lose



No you aren't getting it right. probably because you don't have enough experience with what you are talking about.

Go look at my killboard and see just how afraid I am of losing a ship. I've had twice the number ships shot out from under me than you've managed to kill in double the time I've been playing this game. So don't talk to me about risk aversion

I haven't said anything about being a target or not being a target. RR is always a priority target because they are a serious force multiplier. At issue is what kind of side affect changes implemented to address the problem of Neutral RR in hi-sec will have on RR everywhere else in the game.

RR is used differently in null sec than it is in high, Particularly in SOV null where station games aren't really an issue (if you aren't blue you can't dock so no station games)

When I fly logi I'm not repping some nano-twit popping newbie wardec targets on the Jita undock I'm typically in a 100+ man fleet desperately trying to get targets locked and reps on them prior to their going pop. I'm cycling reps on up to 5 people at a time and having to move on to someone else as soon as they're out of danger, meanwhile I'm not getting on any killmails or getting any documented credit for my contributions.

Large scale SOV warfare isn't the same as high sec warfare, a strategic retreat is and should be a legitimate tactic. You don't throw away a perfectly good fleet because you find yourself outmatched as an FC you keep your guys together and extricate yourself from the battle so you can have those resources available for another fight you have a chance of winning.

Replacing assets in Null isn't a matter of just hopping over to Jita and buying new **** , you either have to make it yourself (collectively) or someone has to haul that crap down from hi-sec.

You are often deployed far from any place you can go buy new ships because you are in hostile SOV space where docking up and buying a new ship simply isn't an option. So it's only natural to husband your resources more carefully. (welpfleets not withstanding)

Like Liang said (amazing how we can be going at each others throats in the inflation thread while in accord here) ban and biomass neutral reppers in high as far as I'm concerned. Their existence/non existence doesn't affect me one way or the other. I was able to work around them fine when I lived in high and they are no longer a concern since I've went to null.

What I'm concerned about is how these changes are going to affect legitimate use of logistics and other targeted boosting as well as what kinds of effects coding it could have on server performance.

I'm fine with CCP making changes to eliminate neutral RR, I just want to be sure CCP is taking care that their fix doesn't break my part of the game.
Gary Bell
Herp Inc.dot
Darwinism.
#50 - 2012-03-23 15:25:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Gary Bell
There is alot of stupid in this thread...

You can still engage on gates...

When logi reps they take the timer of the aggressor not a new timer. Basically if you fired and a bigger fleet jumped you everyone deagress and wait out timer to jump. Logi will only have the timer of the last aggressor. You do not recieve a fresh timer for each rep, you take on the timer at the very same time as the last person to aggress. All this will do is make sure logi are last to leave field. All logis will be able to jump at the same time as the last person to agress. Now if you have some idiot who leaves out drones it could get hairy.

The only difference you will see is no more fights on gates where logi can bounce back and forth threw the gate when they take to much dps, which will deff make a change to small gang pvp on gates (Home Def fleets etc)

Please read the tread B4 you say stupid things...

+1 For a good change which will give a lil life to high sec

P.s Will be good fun to watch high sec station humpers try to have a ton of logi repping, and smart guy with alt corp full of arty fit nados who come in and insta pop everything..
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-03-23 15:26:15 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:

btw a couple big differences.

dictor 25-50 mil
logi 170-200mil

Dictor drive by
Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer

price doesn't matter as we learnt from supercap nerfs.....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-03-23 15:42:35 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:


dictor 25-50 mil
logi 170-200mil

Dictor drive by
Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer

So basically the logi costs more and therefore should have different rules to make it easier to fly?

The logi isnt stuck on grid. He can warp away just like the dictor can. He can even cloak just like the dictor can. The only difference is that if you launch a warp bubble you cant immediately dock or jump the gate. You CAN repair and then immediatly dock/jump. That is wrong.


Yes cost matters. Dictors are generally viewed as disposable ships. They also are used in a drive by manner, warp in drop bubble, burn and warp out while Logi is sitting there on grid trying desperately to get reps on friendlies before they pop. A bubble is also an aggressive act while repping is a defensive. Also logi has to do their work on the hostile side of a gate while a Dictor trying to delay a force can easily jump through drop bubble then warp off. Logi's don't typically fit cloaks it's a wasted slot and the targeting delay pretty much destroys their ability to do their job effectively.

Basically the two activities are so dissimilar that comparing them is pointless.

A logi that's covering a retreating fleet has to sit on the outbound gate until their fleet is able to jump through, also if they are repping in that situation they have no control over whether or not one of the morons in their rep chain did something stupid to reset their timers (all it takes one idiot forgetting to recall a drone or accidentally shooting the gate to leave your entire logi force stuck.

Frankly it's hard enough to find people to fly logi under the existing circumstances, no killmails no indication of participation while risking expensive skill intensive ships. add suicidal to that list and good luck convincing people to fly them.

Oh and honestly I don't see why dictors shouldn't be able to jump after dropping a bubble either it's not like they're particularly hard ships to kill.

I swear some of you people think your entitled to a kill simply by logging in. Battles that revolve strictly on who has the most dps buffer will be boring. Force multipliers like Logi and ewar make things interesting and allow for a wider range of strategies and tactics. They provide a means for a smaller well organized force to counter larger blobs with sufficient skill. But you'd reduce it to the point where the only determining factor of a battle would be who could bring the most DPS to bear and that would be dull.

Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#53 - 2012-03-23 16:21:15 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:

No you aren't getting it right. probably because you don't have enough experience with what you are talking about.


Yes, you are absolutely right. All my PvP experience is listed on battleclinic or some other killboard because that is what everyone e-peens on.
And yes, your vast experience in PvP offers no out of the box thinking to solve the issues.

Your circle of reasoning is set within certain limits you and a vast majority of EVE maneuvred themselves in.
As soon as someone does some out of the box thinking and comes with a nice idea in regards how to counter certain things you are eagerly adapting to the same stramien and the folley of your tears here will be nothing more than a mere shimmer in the distance.

EVE has always been a game of adaption. Those who manage to adapt are the ones on top of the foodchain for a short period of time.
Those who fail to adapt wander off into the faint memories of those who cry about the good old times in a few years.
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#54 - 2012-03-23 16:31:44 UTC
ITT: I can't have my cake and eat it too.


So you want to be able to continue to rip fleets off on a null sec gate with RR, but in high sec on a station it's some big deal that logi can just poof?

Hypocrites.

Adunh Slavy
#55 - 2012-03-23 16:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Skex Relbore wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:

if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jump
else jump


You are ignoring the process of determining the value for your timer variable. Which is a far more complex process


Yep, I ignore it, that pseudo snippet doesn't care about the timer if you are in null sec. Read it carefully.

If you want to now change your argument, we can do that, but don't try and pretend that you aren't.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-03-23 16:43:20 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:

btw a couple big differences

dictor 25-50 mi
logi 170-200mi

Dictor drive by
Logi stuck on grid for duration of time

price doesn't matter as we learnt from supercap nerfs.....


No what the supercap nerfs show us is that price should not be an I win button that can only be countered with more of the same. Logi isn't an I win button it can and is regularly countered by a number of additional means including alpha, ewar and simply overwhelming force

To be clear the point of this thread isn't about defending neutral RR. I'm just trying to ensure that the potential side effects are addressed.

The propagation of shared aggression timers is one of those things that sounds great at first brush but I see some pretty serious potential problems with it and have some questions that should at least be considered in the discussion.

For instance what happens when the pilot who's aggression was propagated dies? is the logi's timer still there or does it go away with their target. If it stays that makes it a harder decision on whether to risk being stranded on a gate with hostiles and no way to fight back is worth trying to save the friendly ship.

It makes it much more difficult to determine when to jump, you could easily end up in a situation where you are chain repping to cover a retreat then the pilot with the longest remaining timer dies and that timer is still applied to your logi. in the mean time the combat ships in your fleet who have full control over whether they have a timer or not clear their timers and jump out leaving the logi stranded with no support of their own.

These decisions will have effects on the general risk calculations in all sorts of PVP scenarios, people are generally less likely to engage if they don't see a chance for victory or at least survival. The ability to dock up immediately while repping results in more RR ships (particularly carriers) engaging actions that would not be considered otherwise, that can and often do result in destruction of the ships in question. (The CFC killed more than a couple WN. carriers that thought they'd hop out and RR before re-docking only to get alpha'd by the maelblobs)

This is the point I keep trying to get people to understand in discussions of mechanic changes that will supposedly improve the "risk vs reward" of an action. People stay focused on theoretical risks that people will never engage in (like taking an officer fit faction BS into low should L4s be moved there exclusively) while ignoring the positive effects risk mitigation has on the matter (With L4s in high sec you can suicide gank the officer fit faction BS's that people actually use because of the lower perceived risk)

Is it really an improvement if removal of the ability for Logi to dock up instantly causes people to be less willing to engage on stations and gates at all? (they are the two main places there PVP takes place after all) How many fights happen because a logi pilot is willing to undock to support a fight against poor odds because they know that if things go badly they have a chance of docking up. (note the use of the word "chance", mistakes happen, people screw up and logi's still manage to die on stations and gates as things stand now)

In the end I'll work around what ever changes end up going through just like I've worked around or through every other change CCP has implemented that I thought was ill conceived

Hell it's possible (however unlikely) that CCP has actually giving my concerns great thought and that my worries have already been addressed.

But I really think that people are so caught up on the "Neutral RR BAD!!!" thing that they aren't looking at the big picture of the situation outside of those circumstances mainly due to ignorance of how RR is used in other places even the Null guys pipping in don't seem to be experienced logi pilots

Consider Del's comment. Del is a good friend and I generally respect his opinion but his experience with RR is extremely limited. R-V-B doesn't generally use RR and so most of their experience with the mechanic comes from dealing with fail deccing Neutral RRing ganktards who run at the first sign of anything that could put up a fight and tend to roll with 3-1 neutral RR to combat ship ratios. The existence of the RR mechanic doesn't really affect their game play in anyway but negative so it's no real surprise he'd be cheering this on.

If I were confident that this change would only affect Neutral RR in high sec I'd have no objections whatsoever. But I'm not confident of this, not given CCP's history or the lack of a wider perspective most of the people discussing the issue have shown.

Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2012-03-23 16:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Skex Relbore wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:


dictor 25-50 mil
logi 170-200mil

Dictor drive by
Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer

So basically the logi costs more and therefore should have different rules to make it easier to fly?

The logi isnt stuck on grid. He can warp away just like the dictor can. He can even cloak just like the dictor can. The only difference is that if you launch a warp bubble you cant immediately dock or jump the gate. You CAN repair and then immediatly dock/jump. That is wrong.


Yes cost matters.


No. Cost doesnt matter. Logi's arnt THAT expensive anyways. They might be more then a rifter or dictor but they arnt significantly more expensive to require their own set of rules.

The real reason people are scared of this change is they wont be able to undock their carriers for reps without losing it to PL drops.

Your logistics ships should absolutely not be able to dock or jump gates after providing assistance. They should inherit the jump/dock timers from the people they repair. As stated, logistics/ecm are 'force multipliers' aka they massively increase your fleet's abilities. Currently they do that for free with no risk. Thats stupid.

Quote:
Is it really an improvement if removal of the ability for Logi to dock up instantly causes people to be less willing to engage on stations and gates at all?

YES. Currently, logistics teams can endlessly repair you and take absolutely no risks doing it. They can keep one person alive forever and never risk their own ships. Thats stupid.

Also, logistics are abused as 'scouts'. When an FC isnt sure about the other side of the gate, he sends in the logi's because they can just repair eachother and jump back through the gate. Thats stupid.

I fly logistics. In 2 days Logi5 finishes training and then i get my triage skills. My alt also has logistics skills. I've flown them in large, medium, and small gangs before as well. I know how they work. And they're broken.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-03-23 16:52:37 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:

if not in null and timer is more than 0, no jump
else jump


You are ignoring the process of determining the value for your timer variable. Which is a far more complex process


Yep, I ignore it because that psuedo snippet doesn't care about the timer if you are in null sec. Read it carefully.

If you want to now change your argument, we can do that, but don't try and pretend that you aren't.


I stand corrected, my apologies.

Further if the change were actually implemented like this, so that it's effects were limited to empire I would happily support the change, though I'd prefer this change to the condition.

if system sec status <5 and timer >0, no jump
else jump
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-03-23 16:53:53 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
TBH this is one of the few good pvp-related changes that were announced.

Its kinda silly to have a shitton of neutral alts in scimitars repping you, and then just docking up when you shoot the scimitars


I'm not talking about neutral alts in Scimitars repping someone. I'm talking about fleet members in no holds barred null battles repping allies to cover disengagement on a gate without having to commit suicide in a 200mil isk ship to save a 40 mil isk Drake.

I'm talking about not screwing over people who are using RR in a legitimate manner.

If those changes only apply to high sec then I don't really give a ****, but as far as I know aggression mechanics are global regardless of security status of the system in question.


If you don't want to commit 200mil to save a 40 mil ship then don't rep the 40mil ships. However, Logi is a massive force multiplier and should not be a "free" force multiplier. If it commits to combat/repping it should have the same aggression as any other ship and should not gate jump or dock.
Adunh Slavy
#60 - 2012-03-23 17:12:23 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:

I stand corrected, my apologies.

Further if the change were actually implemented like this, so that it's effects were limited to empire I would happily support the change, though I'd prefer this change to the condition.

if system sec status <5 and timer >0, no jump
else jump


No problem, such things happen online. And I do understand your concerns as well. These things can be overomce in a straight forward way, that's all I hoped to illustrate.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt