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RR Changes
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Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-03-23 08:06:13 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
TBH this is one of the few good pvp-related changes that were announced.

Its kinda silly to have a shitton of neutral alts in scimitars repping you, and then just docking up when you shoot the scimitars


I'm not talking about neutral alts in Scimitars repping someone. I'm talking about fleet members in no holds barred null battles repping allies to cover disengagement on a gate without having to commit suicide in a 200mil isk ship to save a 40 mil isk Drake.

well. this is not different from using interdictor with probes following main fleet to make enemies slower. Support role.


btw a couple big differences.

dictor 25-50 mil
logi 170-200mil

Dictor drive by
Logi stuck on grid for duration of timer
Adunh Slavy
#22 - 2012-03-23 08:09:23 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Warp away, run around for 60 seconds, then jump or dock? If you're pointed, that's what tanks and falcons are for?


Yeah because it's not like there are area affect warp disruption devices or such to prevent that sort of thing.

Seriously come back and provide some input after you've actually flown logistics in a large scale battle.



No thanks, I don't want to fly a logistics ship in that mess.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-03-23 08:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Warp away, run around for 60 seconds, then jump or dock? If you're pointed, that's what tanks and falcons are for?


Yeah because it's not like there are area affect warp disruption devices or such to prevent that sort of thing.

Seriously come back and provide some input after you've actually flown logistics in a large scale battle.



No thanks, I don't want to fly a logistics ship in that mess.



Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well.

....and buy buy low hanging fruit in roam logi can't cover the degress.

Lol don't be last.
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-03-23 09:40:12 UTC
I remmeber suggesting RR agression months ago... this is a good thing! very very good thing!

We are talking about logistic ships being being committing to the field if they assist... (in low sec and null sec) we are talking about carriers in null/low sec being unable to dock up instantly if they are repping their fleet on the undock (and thus can be bumped off or hotdropped) we are talking about more deaths overall... deaths are good yo

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-03-23 09:40:52 UTC
Any corp/alliance anywhere near competent will not even notice this change. People who blob with logi and make horrible decisions will die like they are supposed to.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2012-03-23 09:47:32 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:

So the question is has anyone at CCP considered the effect that these changes will have on non-neutral RR? Because I'm going to be a tad miffed if the 30 days I spent training logi 5 suddenly becomes worthless just too appease high sec crybabies.


The way Greyscale said it would work is that you inherit the timer of the person you're repping. When he stops shooting for X seconds, you are both deaggressed. Logi fleets should be able to deaggress as soon as the last person they're repping stops aggressing.
Confirming: this is exactly what was said, and we asked them about it in very precise terms.

BS1 attacks a target and takes a timer.
RR1 comes in and starts repping BS1 → RR1 inherits the exact same timer as BS1.
BS1 deaggresses and timer countdown starts → RR1 deagresses and countdown starts
RR1 keeps repping → Makes zero difference. It still has BS1's timer — BS1 sits at 40s = RR1 sits at 40s.
BS1's timer runs out and he docks/jumps → RR1's timer runs out and he can dock/jump
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-03-23 09:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
Tippia wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Skex Relbore wrote:

So the question is has anyone at CCP considered the effect that these changes will have on non-neutral RR? Because I'm going to be a tad miffed if the 30 days I spent training logi 5 suddenly becomes worthless just too appease high sec crybabies.


The way Greyscale said it would work is that you inherit the timer of the person you're repping. When he stops shooting for X seconds, you are both deaggressed. Logi fleets should be able to deaggress as soon as the last person they're repping stops aggressing.
Confirming: this is exactly what was said, and we asked them about it in very precise terms.

BS1 attacks a target and takes a timer.
RR1 comes in and starts repping BS1 → RR1 inherits the exact same timer as BS1.
BS1 deaggresses and timer countdown starts → RR1 deagresses and countdown starts
RR1 keeps repping → Makes zero difference. It still has BS1's timer — BS1 sits at 40s = RR1 sits at 40s.
BS1's timer runs out and he docks/jumps → RR1's timer runs out and he can dock/jump


Sounds fair enough :) Just that way it should be... only question... does all remote effects do this? (assiting effects like remote sensor boosters, tracking... and such?)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Adunh Slavy
#28 - 2012-03-23 09:54:08 UTC
Onictus wrote:

Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well.
Lol don't be last.


He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2012-03-23 09:57:31 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Sounds fair enough :) Just that way it should be... only question... does all remote effects do this? (assiting effects like remote sensor boosters, tracking... and such?)

I'm going to say yes, not because they've said so, but because afaik, it's being handled by the exact same system.

So… yeah, presumably yes.
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-03-23 09:59:21 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well.
Lol don't be last.


He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see.


The remote assisting of something that is taking sentry gun fire already gives the "logistic" agression from the sentry guns as far as I know, but they are able to jump/dock (thats the difference thats going to be changed)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Kingston Black
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-03-23 10:02:46 UTC
This change sounds perfectly respectable i cant believe people are actually moaning about a suggestion like this.

As a lowsec pirate i cant see this affecting my ability to pew people in the face at all. Pirate

DEATH TO TEH CARRIERS REPPING CYNOS!!!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2012-03-23 10:03:31 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well.
Lol don't be last.

He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see.

To clarify: they're separating the mechanics for aggression and timers. Some specific act may trigger either or both, but they won't actually depend on each other in any way.

So getting the aggression flag that gives you gate fire is a separate issue from inheriting timers. It's the fomer part that hasn't quite been decided on yet: what flags will cause sentry fire, and how those flags will be inherited.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-03-23 10:13:56 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well.
Lol don't be last.


He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see.


The remote assisting of something that is taking sentry gun fire already gives the "logistic" agression from the sentry guns as far as I know, but they are able to jump/dock (thats the difference thats going to be changed)


Yeah, that was my point. Before at least you could jump and bail. Now you'll be primary and under gate fire and unable to leave system.

In null it means that any fc that doesn't want to loose thier logi isn't going to be fighting against a gate.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#34 - 2012-03-23 10:25:46 UTC
One thought occurs to me (it may have been answered already, hard to tell from a black screen What?) and that's what happens to an inherited timer from a ship which gets destroyed?

It's not a likely scenario I admit but anything's possible, let's assume that you have a newbie along in a fairly obviously fragile ship and he accidentally shoots the gate (or perhaps he's a spy and does it deliberately) giving the logis a fresh timer. The hostiles pop him and send him home the quick way... Are you left with a logi (or group of logis) fully committed to a frozen corpse because they still have timers?

In highsec there's a built in protection because shooting gate or station will be a criminal act and a new aggression and the logi's RR will shut down automatically so they don't pick up a timer from CONCORD but in null...
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-03-23 10:35:19 UTC
Skex Relbore wrote:
So the question is has anyone at CCP considered the effect that these changes will have on non-neutral RR? Because I'm going to be a tad miffed if the 30 days I spent training logi 5 suddenly becomes worthless just too appease high sec crybabies.


1st Eve law, don't fly a ship you can't afford to loose.

The only crycrap I see around is a brainless arrogant pubbie crying because he trained logi V and he's now afraid, yes afraid, of loosing a ship.

Cry me a river.


Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-03-23 10:38:13 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Screws you more in empire. The GCC was annoying but you could always jump the gate. Now the logi CAN'T rep inside gate sentry range without being prepared to ward off scimis don't tank gate fire well.
Lol don't be last.


He didn't have any answer for gate/station guns. Another wait and see.


The remote assisting of something that is taking sentry gun fire already gives the "logistic" agression from the sentry guns as far as I know, but they are able to jump/dock (thats the difference thats going to be changed)


Yeah, that was my point. Before at least you could jump and bail. Now you'll be primary and under gate fire and unable to leave system.

In null it means that any fc that doesn't want to loose thier logi isn't going to be fighting against a gate.


Ho really?
Your null sec gates have sentry now? -lazy poster is lazy.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2012-03-23 10:46:11 UTC
Onictus wrote:


Yeah, that was my point. Before at least you could jump and bail. Now you'll be primary and under gate fire and unable to leave system.

In null it means that any fc that doesn't want to loose thier logi isn't going to be fighting against a gate.


The logi can jump at the same time as everything else that was agressed. I see no problem.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#38 - 2012-03-23 10:51:33 UTC
This change simply means this: remote support ships (excluding, so far, “passive” support like fleet bonuses) that are commited to the fight will… well… have to commit to the fight just as much as the ships they're supporting.

Don't want to commit to the fight and risk losing your repper/remote-support? Then live without the bonuses they provide.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-03-23 10:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
No in null you are bubbled and unable to jump away through the gate or otherwise.......so if the logi picks up a timer they are toast.

So the standard practice of logi covering the fleet leaving system ends. Because you won't have much logi left if there is a force chasing you.
........where the **** did you gate guns in null....
Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-03-23 12:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Skex Relbore
Bubanni wrote:
I remmeber suggesting RR agression months ago... this is a good thing! very very good thing

We are talking about logistic ships being being committing to the field if they assist... (in low sec and null sec) we are talking about carriers in null/low sec being unable to dock up instantly if they are repping their fleet on the undock (and thus can be bumped off or hotdropped) we are talking about more deaths overall... deaths are good yo


How do people like you not drown in the rain is a constant mystery to me.

You are just like the "move Lv4 missions to low" idiots who are convinced that doing so will create a stream of shinny officer fit faction ships going into low to provide them targets

You won't see more kills in those situations because people will change their behaviors, there won't be more carriers bumped off station from this change because the change will result in no carriers being pulled out to RR on a station.

Not having the option to disengage on a gate will make engaging on a gate less likely as well

It is entirely possible that this change could result in fewer ships going boom rather than more

Understand I do not object to ending the practice of Neutral RR in principal. I just want assurances that CCP is actually cognizant of and have worked out the ramifications of this change in situations that do not involve neutral RR asshattery.

Saying stupid **** like "don't engage unless you are willing to commit" is all fine and dandy but understand that the practical effect of that will be fewer FCs willing to engage at all save under perfectly optimal conditions which will result in fewer fights and more blue balls.

Then there is the whole question of all how this additional aggression tracking will effect server performance and lag as the system is having to keep track of thousands of transitive aggression states more per second which is a whole 'nother can of worms