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Banned by GM for RRing sentry drones. Dev verdict required

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Propmod
The Creepshow
#61 - 2012-03-22 01:34:13 UTC
Would your sentries target someone who came in and stole from one of your wrecks? It'd be a great way for someone to get aggression on you if it can work that way
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#62 - 2012-03-22 01:45:32 UTC
Propmod wrote:
Would your sentries target someone who came in and stole from one of your wrecks? It'd be a great way for someone to get aggression on you if it can work that way

No, drones are smart enough to not do that now, unless something was messed up in 1.5.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#63 - 2012-03-22 02:09:16 UTC
Postradamus wrote:


I totally agree. But the GMs are supposed to have EVIDENCE before the ban is handed down. I KNOW these guys aren't using macros. The whole point was to NOT use macros!


No, they don't need evidence. Maybe they should but they don't need it to ban somebody.

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Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-03-22 02:30:25 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Propmod wrote:
Would your sentries target someone who came in and stole from one of your wrecks? It'd be a great way for someone to get aggression on you if it can work that way

No, drones are smart enough to not do that now, unless something was messed up in 1.5.


nope no change in 1.5. already tested
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-03-22 02:40:33 UTC
Sirinda wrote:
If - IF - that happened exactly the way you described it, I can't see a ToS violation.


There is no ToS violation if it's exactly what happened.
Simplistic or broken game rules/mechanics leads to this kind of silly situation: yes you can but no you can't

Take a ride to trade hubs like Jita undock and watch all the exploits being done by the same char/corps and are completely ignored.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-03-22 09:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
the important question to answer here that so far has been ignored completelly:

Has any character previously had received warnings for previous actions or has been temporarely banned in the past?

If so, then you should have walked a fine line since then.....
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#67 - 2012-03-22 10:05:21 UTC
I am wondering how long you, i mean 'your brother and his friend' were doing this for?

I would hazard a guess that 'they' were leaving this setup running over night, every night or something like that.
In which case, if I was CCP, I would ban you. oops, I mean 'your brother and his friend'.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
JeanMichel Bizarre
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2012-03-22 10:18:42 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
I am wondering how long you, i mean 'your brother and his friend' were doing this for?

I would hazard a guess that 'they' were leaving this setup running over night, every night or something like that.
In which case, if I was CCP, I would ban you. oops, I mean 'your brother and his friend'.



Why? It's not against any rules?

Dangerzone
Herold Oldtimer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-03-22 10:33:06 UTC
One big clue in this would be, how long did they run this for and where they by the computer all that time doing other stuff. Like looking at the market, or chatting with other people ingame.

Now I don't know how long they did this, or what other activity they did. But if they did this in, for excample, 12 - 16 hours, and nothing else. Then I can see this as a violation. They gain something and don't need to play actively.

If this was the first and only offence, then a straight up ban might be a bit harsh, a warning is usually more common. thought they might have gotten it, where not home and thus did not reply, and as a result got a ban.
Katrina D'Neese
First Star Industries
#70 - 2012-03-22 10:34:21 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Postradamus wrote:
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
I don't see how this is a banable offense...

You either indirectly pissed off a dev or 2.
Or someone reported you and thought you were macroing.


This might be the case. After all, leaving a ship to RR sentries sitting there killing any npc rat that comes along will seem like automation to those passing by the belts.


I totally agree. But the GMs are supposed to have EVIDENCE before the ban is handed down. I KNOW these guys aren't using macros. The whole point was to NOT use macros!

Either this was a lazy GM, or there is a policy that is not being articulated. If it's the latter, all I'm asking for is a clear ruling. If it's the former, I'd like my mates' bans overturned.



Or the GM does not believe you and/or you are leaving something out


THIS, as has already been said on here that its a 3 times and you're out affair so they either brought the accounts with strikes on them which is also a bannable offence or you're friends never did tell you about the ones they already had. Either way I think there is more to this story than OP leads on but CCP aren't going to discuss it so we'll never know Roll
Prince Kobol
#71 - 2012-03-22 10:45:04 UTC
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
One big clue in this would be, how long did they run this for and where they by the computer all that time doing other stuff. Like looking at the market, or chatting with other people ingame.

Now I don't know how long they did this, or what other activity they did. But if they did this in, for excample, 12 - 16 hours, and nothing else. Then I can see this as a violation. They gain something and don't need to play actively.

If this was the first and only offence, then a straight up ban might be a bit harsh, a warning is usually more common. thought they might have gotten it, where not home and thus did not reply, and as a result got a ban.


What does the length of time they were doing it for matter?

The act of killing NPC's with drones whilst repping them is either allowed or not.

You can not say yeah its fine so log as you only do it for a few hours a day.

As for whether they had any previous infractions on their account, again this does not matter if what they were doing was not an exploit.
Prince Kobol
#72 - 2012-03-22 10:46:29 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
the important question to answer here that so far has been ignored completelly:

Has any character previously had received warnings for previous actions or has been temporarely banned in the past?

If so, then you should have walked a fine line since then.....


This is only of any relevance if the act of sitting in space killing NPC's with your drones whilst repping them is deemed to be an exploit.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#73 - 2012-03-22 10:49:53 UTC
GMs in any game have the authority to ban you for being overly rude to the GM staff, just like and customer service position is allowed to end communication with you for verbal attacks on their person, and CCP GMs are not very heavily policed by the company, so i would expect the petition challenging the banning was of the insulting and obscene variety, which resulted in the GMs closing it out as 'We don't need more of that in EVE anyway'.

Be polite, and do your best to work with them, and they are likely to look for ways to use policy to cut you some slack, but if you are a prick about it, expect them to block every effort you make.

As the old saying goes, you catch more flies with honey.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Herold Oldtimer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-03-22 10:54:48 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
One big clue in this would be, how long did they run this for and where they by the computer all that time doing other stuff. Like looking at the market, or chatting with other people ingame.

Now I don't know how long they did this, or what other activity they did. But if they did this in, for excample, 12 - 16 hours, and nothing else. Then I can see this as a violation. They gain something and don't need to play actively.

If this was the first and only offence, then a straight up ban might be a bit harsh, a warning is usually more common. thought they might have gotten it, where not home and thus did not reply, and as a result got a ban.


What does the length of time they were doing it for matter?

The act of killing NPC's with drones whilst repping them is either allowed or not.

You can not say yeah its fine so log as you only do it for a few hours a day.

As for whether they had any previous infractions on their account, again this does not matter if what they were doing was not an exploit.




Because that is what the gm's usually have to go on in cases sutch as this. How long did they do it? And what other activity did they do during that time?

If that was the only thing that was being done for I don't know how long, then yes, I can see this as a violation. A bannable? No. But again, it might be that they did get a warning, werent home, and thus got sactioned for it accordingly. It is the same issue with botters.

Is botting fine?
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-03-22 11:10:51 UTC
Plainly not automation.

Game mechanics should not allow for this tactic to be used to passively generate income though.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-03-22 11:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Prince Kobol wrote:
What does the length of time they were doing it for matter?


Let me put it this way:

From how many dead people can we consider someone a murderer? -1? -10? -100
When you start not liking someone?
Just because you woke up in the morning with bad mood?
Maybe just because it's your monthly bad moment?

So, where and when or from witch point something is considered game exploit, and who can or can not a single moment consider that even if you're doing it right well you are still doing it wrong.

Chaos methods can't work RL and can't work neither in a game, whatever you will ever do to try to keep those methods functioning, will invariably lead to it's end, it's just a matter of time but it always leads to radical solutions.

Learning skills and Tiericide are just 2 examples that would in any given time without prevent and for whatever reason lead to their own end just because they have no sense, they brought a whole lot of problems impossible to regulate/solve in a decent way, and that is what chaos is about, non sense rules non sense mechanics non sense laws that always finish quite badly.

Edit: now, another step of that chaos methods is also over ruling everything leading to something that whatever you do you always infringe some rule, and the only one capable to figure out when is...?
Prince Kobol
#77 - 2012-03-22 12:01:12 UTC
Herold Oldtimer wrote:



Because that is what the gm's usually have to go on in cases sutch as this. How long did they do it? And what other activity did they do during that time?

If that was the only thing that was being done for I don't know how long, then yes, I can see this as a violation. A bannable? No. But again, it might be that they did get a warning, werent home, and thus got sactioned for it accordingly. It is the same issue with botters.

Is botting fine?


No it isn't, you are confusing 2 different issues here.

What the OP has described does not require any automation of any kind. It is simply using existing game mechanics.

You can not compare something which requires no automation or input from the player past the initial launching of drones and reppers to something which does require constant input from a player like mining or missioning which are what bots are used for.

So again saying something only becomes an exploit because you have been doing after x amount time is just plain wrong.

Whether you should be able to do something this is a separate argument, the fact is you can and many people do in missions.

Unless CCP has stated that using drones to kill NPC's whilst having a stable tank and ability to RR your drones is a exploit, there they have done nothing wrong.

Now if its a case of a GM has repeatedly tried to convo them and has received no reply and has then presumed they must be using some sort of automation tool then that just shows an alarming lack of in game knowledge on behalf of the GM.
gfldex
#78 - 2012-03-22 12:01:53 UTC
Arec Bardwin wrote:
I saw variations on this years ago in certain COSMOS plexes. Does this mean leaving a Domi afk in a mission room is a bannable offense now?


If you do it from DT to DT. (That's my guess why the ban happened.)

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Sanphesta
Perkone
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-03-22 12:27:44 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Perhaps if CCP do not want people to be able to make ISK passively in this manner then they should code their game correctly rather than claiming that non-activity = automation.

By this logic anyone logged in and doing nothing is also using automation, which is clearly a stupid conclusion.



/walks in- finds the thread funny, but not quite funny enough...

Points out that afk cloakys are also logged in and not doing anything

There, that should help a bit Pirate

fake edit to point out that even if this was done dt to dt- its still not automation. it is not playing, granted, but its using the ingame (long) existing mechanics in a way they are intended to be used (and if you dont like it ccp then change the code)
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#80 - 2012-03-22 12:39:42 UTC
Postradamus wrote:
My brother and a friend were banned a few days ago. The explanatory mail accused them of "Macroing".

They weren't macroing.

Here's what they were actually doing:

1. Find area in HIGHSEC where rats spawn
2. Turn on local tank
3. Launch a few sentry drones
4. Target each drone and apply remote reps to drones
5. Sit back and watch as wave after wave of rats attack the ship and/or the drones, and are blown up

As you can clearly see, this setup requires NO CLICKING OF ANY KIND, much less automated clicking.

Both players asked for an in-depth explanation of their bans, and received identical copypasta responses claiming that GMs had investigated and found evidence of "automation", and stating that further petitions would be ignored.

YOU'D THINK LAUNCHING SENTRY DRONES AND REMOTE REPAIRING THEM IS OK, but I guess I need to get a Dev ruling on the acceptability of this practice.

(If any dev actually reads this, please PM me with some advice on how I can help my associates get un-banned.)


If this is true, this litterly opens up a can of worms, there are perhaps hundreds if not thousands of players, that afk their Rattlesnakes in missions plexs,anoms etc while there drones do the work, are they at risk of being banned now because of a possible mis-interpitation by a GM? ShockedUmm CCP you better clarify how you draw your conclusions
Ugh

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