Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Yes but see also "pirate" faction, faction BSs... Afetr all that's the main competition.

Why so much hate on web strength bonus? 90% webs are lots of fun, and btw all webs can be overheated for 30% more range

I personally wouldn't mind having the tractor beam bonus completely removed, I never use the salvaging feature on my marauder, mostly because as many have pointed out, the noctis is just plain better, also salvaging and looting with the marauder just tends to mess up the cargo hold, the ammo and whatever you're carrying gets mixed with all the salvaged junk..
It only comes in handy for that occasional cargo that we have to pick up 50km away and makes up for the ship's inability to move (fast (even with prop mod))

Npc ewar immunity would be a huge bonus for missions that's for sure... I think I like the idea
But in that case they wouldn't need more dps, not having to wait for that darn damp or TD to shut down would speed up mission completions considerably IMO (in the current situation ECM is another issue and just seems incompatible with the way ccp decided to apply the ships' role restriction)

I only use and know the Paladin, and I really enjoy the ship even as it is today, even if the capacitor amount bonus seems a bit silly as the base amount is vastly reduced compared to the t1 Apocalypse (other marauders have the same (or almost) capacitor capacity as their t1 counterpart). I don't really see however, how replacing it with a bonus to laser cap use would be better, as the 100% damage bonus also acts as a 50% reduction to weapon cap consumption without sacrificing a bonus slot for it (compared to the Apocalypse, 4 VS 8 guns, etc...) and my fit is almost cap stable with multifrequency without lacking on defence, range or anything so stuff like a bonus to cap recharge rate sounds a bit OP (or even useless), but who knows
I do like and use the web strength bonus, it allows tachyon beams to deliver their full power at orbiting cruisers and battleships that come too close without the use of any tracking enhancement, and god is it powerful

TL;DR
IMO marauders have their flaws but aren't a lost cause, tachyon beam paladin is awesome, web strength bonus rules, and npc ewar immunity is interesting and should be further discussed

A ships purpose is definite by its fitting. Not enough cap is a limitation for a fitting and CCP cheated us with this skill bonus.
Lets compare.... a bit. All stats are plain ship stats.

(Shipname | Cap | Recharge time)

Prophecy: 2812 GJ | 750s
Damnation: 3375 GJ | 750s
Absolution: 3375 GJ | 750s

Omen: 1250 GJ | 446,25s
Zealot: 1500 GJ | 335s

Maller: 1500GJ | 537,50s
Sacrilege: 1625GJ | 335s

Apocalypse: 7500 GJ | 1154,88s
Paladin: 5625 GJ | 923,90s

Sure, the Paladin has only 4 turrets and make damage like it has 10 turrets, but it is a limitation how i can fit my ship.
And the Paladin has other drawbacks.
1. The (Armor/Shild)-resistance is bad. Compare it with the Absolution/Zealot/Sacrilege than you can see it.
And two of these ships can push there resistance with a skill bonus.
2. Sig radius/ Sensor Strength/ Scan Res

Maybe someone remembers my post on page 5?^^

And yes.. it is cool to web with 90% strength. But when your Hobgoblins have problems to hit a frigate, even when this frigate is webed, then you have a problem..
I like to take the web bonus away and replace it with a tracking bonus and if this isn't helping, try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UufI-36a2ew&feature=related

*sigh...

AGAIN. Because apparently some people just can't understand this: stop basing your opinions on a ship and it's options like your own opinion of its use is how EVERYONE uses it.

1) You don't like the web bonus? Me and many others do. Giving it even more range would be freakin' awesome. Since you don't use it, you think it should be removed and screw everyone else out of it?

2) Being able to salvage and pull wrecks/cans in some 48km out is awesome. Buffing this would be even more awesome and be a more even competition with Faction BS/Noctis. You're wanting to take away one of the very few things Marauders actually can do that other ships can't. Do you not see the error of that? I have faction bs's, a Noctis and the three gun using Marauders. I've started using the Marauders a lot more simply because a) I trained the damn skills, why not? and b) it's really nice being able to salvage on the go without having to jump a system or two or three back and then back again just to get my Noctis. Mission is 3j over. That's 3j there, do the mission, 3j back, change ships, 3j there again, loot/salvage, 3j back again. Even if it's 1j, it's still just easier to do it on the fly. Not to mention getting to make the "b**** please" face when someone mentions "salvage thieves". Bonusing the salvager cycle time on Marauders would make it even better. And this is just for Lv4's. What about places where you wouldn't really want to be leaving and coming back?

3) All four Marauders have the same amount of base cap. Paladin gets a cap bonus. Honestly, it's probably not enough. Paladin is fine on cap with pulses, but with beams, it's a little more hungry. Vargur obviously doesn't have this problem and thanks to the hybrid buffs, Kronos doesn't suffer too much either. But making use of the Paladin and Kronos's web bonus is difficult because of cap. I think the base cap on all the Marauders needs raised, keeping the Paladin's extra cap bonus because of how hungry lasers are (tach's use 4x the cap 425mm rails do for instance). Giving them all more cap would make it much easier to use a web on the Paladin and Kronos. Would make it easier for the Golem and (with my changes) Vargur to use TP's as well.

4) Vargur and Kronos both already get a tracking bonus. Golem doesn't need one (it gets an explosion velocity bonus). Only one that could really use one is the Paladin. Keeping all this in mind, if you're using "long range" guns (tachs/rails), the close range t2 ammo actually gives even more tracking as a bonus. The "short range" guns (pulse/blasters) already have excellent tracking and don't need any more bonus. If you can't use t2 guns, then that's your problem, not the ship's. TL:DR: Paladin is the only one that really needs any more tracking bonus.

5) NPC ewar immunity... This one Joe loves to keeping shamelessly plugging. The idea is great. I'll give it that. But I don't realistically see CCP doing it. And honestly, this is more of a band-aid solution to flaws in the ships' designs. The ships need their problems fixed, not just covered up. If you just cover this up, then you are STILL gimping the ship in other situations. Completely immunity to NPC ewar is borderline OP, if not crossing it. In Lv4's:

• Getting TP'd by Angles? Lol
• Getting TD'd by Sansha? Load up Opt Range scripts in your TC's and hope for the best XD Having a TE fit really helps.
• Getting SD'd by Serps? Kill of whatever is doing it or load a range script into a sebo and try harder.
• Getting Neuted/NOS'd by Bloods? This can be a problem. An area that needs buffed with Marauders, they need more cap.
• Jammed by Guristas? Fit an ECCM. It does help, but it's filling a hole rather than boosting beyond normal. Needs fixed.
• I leave any out?

6) Sig radius. This doesn't really do ****. If your ship has a sig of 460 or 660, they're still gonna hit you the same damn amount. Unless you're trying to speed tank, in battleship... (excluding the Mach). Large sig radius doesn't increase the maximum damage dealt. Golem taking more damage than your CNR is in your head. Being painted in a mission (which is kinda pointless...) is laughable. I'd much rather be painted than say, damped or jammed. Btw, CNR with a full load of Trauma Fury: 626m sig. Golem with full load of Trauma Rage Torps: 686m sig.

7) Resists and rep bonuses. The Marauders don't need their rep bonuses removed and resists increased. Stop suggesting it. What they need is to keep their bonus (because it IS freakin' useful) and have their resist holes increased. I'll update my list of suggestions to include these in a bit. But think about this, that rep bonus can count as a shield boost amp or aux nano pump. That's one or even two modules or rigs that isn't required to fit for a tank. That's freeing up one or two mid slots/rigs. You remove this bonus, and you WILL be having to use a shield boost amp or aux nano pump to make up for it.

Also, if your hobgoblins are having trouble hitting a frig, then I would say you def have a problem. Namely lack of drone skills... These are skill intensive ships. I want them to stay that way. But when you've got nearly or completely max skills and there are still issues, then there's a problem with the ship.

• I've always noticed how fitting rage torps makes a big difference over the amount of damage I take with javelin torps. So i'm sure the target painters are having an effecti
• TD has no effect on a Golem, so have have no comments on that
• SD sucks for all Marauders. We already have a small window in which we're most effective against frigs and cruisers. Now, with SD, that reduces that window by much more, if not completely removing it, so you'll be stuck fighting those frigs and cruisers when they're orbitting.
• Neut/NOS probably isn't the biggest issue Marauders face because it's not often. However, when we do face them, it can be detrimental to everything.
• Jamming is not fixed by an ECCM. A a matter of fact, the one time I used my Golem in a mission with ECCM, I had to activate 3 before I was able to reasonably block the jamming. So I would say a bare minimum to be able to compete, you would need 2. So, when I'm using those two ECCMs, what am I supposed to take off?? Reduce my resistances and pray? Kick off my shield booster and hope I can take everything out before I need it? Get rid of my target painters and just deal with highly ineffective dps? Neither of those seem like a reasonable compromise...

Over all though, you may feel that npc ewar immunity is a band aid, but I personally feel that it's the only way to fix Marauders in pve without effecting their pvp capability, which probably has a lot to do with why CCP hasn't fixed their sensors already.
I mean, it could potentially make them OP in lvl 4 missions, but that's pretty much the only thing that they're decent at, so they might as well make them really good at it.

Here's everything that they still wouldn't be able to do..

• Solo lvl 5 missions ( most fleets would probably opt not to use a Marauder in their fleet anyway)
• Wormhole pve (easily scanned out, and a t3 works much better)
• Incursions(range is too limited, and again, large targets)
• PvP in general (which CCP seems to think is necessary)
• Low sec pve (This is really based off the difficulty of the area, and whether or not the area is secure for you)
• Null sec pve (again, determined by the difficulty of the area, and the security for you)

I'm just trying to say that While npc ewar immunity will make Marauders extremely powerful, it's in very limited situations. You may think it's a bandaid fix, but I feel that it's more like an amputation. Instead of fighting to balance them which could effect other situations, just cut off the limb causing the problem and give them a prosthetic(fake fix, but better than what they're stuck with now).

Agreed on most of what u said, except the being used in pvp. I'm afraid if they go back and balance them for pvp, they're going to get weaker in pve. Pirate bss may have equal or higher dps, but they don't have near the tank.

One mayor contributor as to why the CNR outperforms the Golem (with cruise missiles anyway), is
the fact that torpedoes have 280 structural hitpoints, while cruise missiles only have 70!
(same as all the missiles, smaller then cruise missiles)

As defender missiles deal out 70 damage, it only takes one defender hit to take out a cruise missile,
(as to four to take out a torpedo). Since the CNR has 7 cruise missiles per volley, one defender hit will
reduce the volley-dps by 14%. But the Golem sees its volley damage reduced by 25%!
The solution could be to increase cruise missile structural hitpoints, but then the CNR would still
be in an advantage. Other solution could be to give the Golem a bonus to cruise missile structural
hitpoint of at least 1% (takes 2 defenders to take a cruise missile) but better 101% (3 defenders).

Clearly there is an unbalance here in the structural hitpoint of the missiles. If this has been done
to discourage people from using cruise missiles on the Golem, then the base flighttime of torpedoes
could use a little boost of, lets say 2 seconds, making it 8 seconds and it's base speed from 1500 m/s
to say 1750 m/s. Base range will thus be increased from 9Km to 14Km (55% increase in range) which is still
way less then the base range of a cruise missile (75Km).

Marauders need a fix, thats for sure, they are just not to compare with a machariel or other faction BS if you want to make missions FAST and not sit in them forever and ever

investing so much skill time just to be outperformed by a faction BS that is cheaper AND better? kind of pointless flying a marauder then

and why not make T2 BS that good at pvp? did i miss something? its always risk vs reward and money vs strength

the only two things that would be good for marauders are either

1) EWAR immunity (maybe only for npcs, but why not for pvp also? would actually make them interesting, and there are allready ships with ewar immunity in eve)

2)more damage give them more damage to fulfill there "role" (yes, missioning is the role of a marauder at the time, just look at the goddamn boni) and be able to outperform a machariel


this is the same problem as with the dramiel vs. any other interceptor in eve, dramiel wins because it can be faster AND harder hitting, negating the skilltime for an interceptor and not going dramiel at the very beginning

Again Joe, I'm not really sure where you're getting this from man. Faction battleships have quite a bit more tank than Marauders. Also, the Marauders aren't be balanced for pvp. They're being balanced and buffed for PvE. Some of these things will spill over into making them actually viable for pvp.

I forgot all about Geister. I think I'll add a missile durability bonus to the Golem in my list...

Also, I thought about this earlier. With the suggestions a few pages back about ewar immunity and warp strength per level. These two bonuses belong on the Black Ops ships... Don't forget they exist, too, and should be far better in PvP imo than a Marauder.
Going to update my list in a separate post...

I can only speak out for the Golem, as i haven't flown any of the other marauders

The bonus to torpedo structural hitpoints isn't really necessary as they already have high enough hitpoints
Cruise missile struct. bonus would be nice, but i would like to see a higher percentage per level there. So that at marauders-V it would take 3 defenders to down a cruise missile. This would mean a cruise missile would have to have at least 141 hitpoints at that level. (anything between 141 and 210 would take 3 defenders). On the other hand: one would already benefit at marauders level 1 for any percentage per level. My suggestion is give the cruise missiles a structural hitpoint bonus as of level 3, of 35% per level. At level 3 -> needs 2 defenders, at level 4 -> still 2, at level 5 -> 3 defenders. At level 5 you should nearly always deliver the full dps
These changes are needed to have the Golem compete with the CNR, concerning cruise missiles

However,.. i do believe the Golem should shine using torpedoes, but it is hampered due to range issues
So instead of the cruise missile structural hitpoint bonus,.. it could have a torpedo flight time bonus
And it's standard 10% bonus to cruise missile velocity isn't really needed. Instead i would like to see it's bonus to torpedo missile velocity increased by a higher percentage, say 15% per level.

Also: make torpedoes a guided missile class so that rigor rigs can be used for them.