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Miners, an endangered species.
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Tobiaz
Spacerats
#141 - 2012-03-21 19:06:44 UTC
Kessiaan wrote:
Wolf Kruol wrote:
It always amazes me how miners whine about everything. They get mostly what they want from CCP dev's to make it more difficult for gankers to do there work and for less profits.


CCP has a twisted sense of humor. Miners have gotten everything they asked for, yet each time the highsec bears who can't/won't defend themselves and cry the most end up worse off.

- Stealing from cans used to not give aggression. Now it does.
- Hopping in & out of an alliance to drop a wardec used to be an exploit. Now it's not.
- Suicide ganking no longer pays out insurance.


Yet the mechanics of mining itself have hardly changed since the begining of EVE. CCP could start by removing most asteroid belts and turning hem into grav sites.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#142 - 2012-03-21 19:08:23 UTC
I hate to say it, but I fully agree.. As much as my corp gets lols out of blowing miners to ****, all it is doing is driving new players away from the game for a handful of lols. .

IMO, it should be effectively impossible to suicide gank in 0.7 and above space.. the carebears and the noobs need relative safety in highsec so that they can actually learn, gain assets and stick with the game and become the lowsec and nullsec dwellers we all want them to be..

0.6 and below, should have a very quick concord reaction time.

Ganking miners brings little to no benefit to the game.. it drives up inflation, and gives pirates a handful of lols at the expense of weeks of work on the part of young players -- as much as we get a kick out of it, we are sabotaging our own game because without new players who STICK with it, this game will ultimately die sooner.

I think it's time for CCP to re-evaluate the 'safety' of the higher sec hisec systems -- and don't tout tha they are safe in 1.0 systems.. there is no money to be made there.. they need to have the opportunity to make some decent isk in relative safety if you expect them to start jumping in to bc's and charging into lowsec.

Mining needs to be made a viable profession again which means:

- nerfing drone poo
- making highsec safer for miners (either by increasing base EHP of barges for new players too stupid to fit properly, or making suicide ganking highly iunprofitable or mechanically impossible) so that people want to mine

as is they are just shiny gank targets
Adunh Slavy
#143 - 2012-03-21 19:12:48 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
[Yet the mechanics of mining itself have hardly changed since the begining of EVE. CCP could start by removing most asteroid belts and turning hem into grav sites.



Doesn't even need to be that complicated. Could just be like anamolies, something anyone can find with the onboard scanner. I'd opt for the system wide belts deal, players get within an AU of the local star, hit the scanner and find some sites.

You are correct though, mining has been the same since before the earth formed and CCP walked the earth. Some where in the vast reaches of space, pixel kittens are dying of boredom.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#144 - 2012-03-21 19:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
TravisWB wrote:
As a relatively long term indy alt toon I have noticed something many of you are probably unaware of.

Hulks and the noob mining barges as well are vanishing from the game.
Our little neut alt corp is active in a couple of empires and many regions and are familiar with many rich mining areas that all have something new in common.

NO MINERS

Systems that once had heavy competitive pressure to get the ore are now mostly devoid of any miners whatsoever.
And this is a much bigger problem than many of you must understand.
Some mining/indy/missioning corps are now full time incursion farmers But the run of the mill, small corp afk mining noobs in a Hulk or two are fewer and farther between than I have EVER seen in nearly three years of play.
And these people were not bots, Bots are only in null, mining ABC around the clock.
Veldspar bots? Ice Bots, are you freaking STUPID?
Most hisec carebear miners/indys are less than 2 year old noobs that don't buy or sell isk. They usually take 6 months of hard work to get that Hulk that then likely as not gets ganked and they quit the game.
Or maybe they autopilot an industrial hauling a weeks worth of gametime work to a hub and that gets ganked. Same result, they quit the game.
And given the seedy and sorry reputation this game now has, guess what? There aren't any noobs out there in a Navitas learning how to mine.
Most 'noobs' these days are actually suicide ganking alts that belong to some jaded nullsec failbot corp. This game is going to fail and fail rather quickly if something isn't done pretty quick.
Nullsec is a total freaking fail. Watch this and try to see why. http://youtu.be/7zzJsA8iecA
And now hisec is swarmed with not bitter vets, but rather disillusioned thugs that dreamed of glory, but now settle for mere thuggery.
Mark my words, this game is going to fail. And when it does it will be far faster than you will imagine.

This has been going on for several months and it is getting worse, not better, not the same as always, but Worse, much worse,

The base of the Eve economy is vanishing.


The problem is that the average miner is literally too dumb to live. These particular miners were streaming live their exact location and mining formation (hint: one big cluster****).

When a prey cannot outwit its predators, nor even be bothered to try, it is eliminated.

I don't make the rules, the sandbox does.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#145 - 2012-03-21 19:52:21 UTC
Chandaris wrote:

I think it's time for CCP to re-evaluate the 'safety' of the higher sec hisec systems -- and don't tout tha they are safe in 1.0 systems.. there is no money to be made there.. they need to have the opportunity to make some decent isk in relative safety if you expect them to start jumping in to bc's and charging into lowsec.

I've never heard anyone claim that miners are safe in a 1.0(except unusually dumb miners), or anywhere else. This is EVE. I dunno how it is know, but when I started, AURA told me 'Here is a ship, here is a laser, there are a couple red crosses, shoot them. Now expect to get ganked, players here will kill you' And was sent on my merry way.

Did the NPE stop telling people they can die anywhere and anytime? If not, then every one of those new players knew what he was in for, and if it was, CCP done screwed up, because you can die anywhere and anytime in EVE, and every single one of us needs to understand that.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#146 - 2012-03-21 19:52:27 UTC
Personally I think the easiest way to deal with this is as follows, as it makes sense within the rules of the sandbox:

Any outlaw who jumps into hisec immediately receives GCC.

This would choke and mostly end highsec ganking. if people really wanted to rat up their sec to gank something extra shiny, they easily could. but it would stop the daily **** of hulks and maks and lower prices across the board, and get more noobs sticking with the game
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#147 - 2012-03-21 19:53:08 UTC
Suicide ganking in a 1.0 system is a bannable offense.

Try to keep up.

Tallian Saotome wrote:
Chandaris wrote:

I think it's time for CCP to re-evaluate the 'safety' of the higher sec hisec systems -- and don't tout tha they are safe in 1.0 systems.. there is no money to be made there.. they need to have the opportunity to make some decent isk in relative safety if you expect them to start jumping in to bc's and charging into lowsec.

I've never heard anyone claim that miners are safe in a 1.0(except unusually dumb miners), or anywhere else. This is EVE. I dunno how it is know, but when I started, AURA told me 'Here is a ship, here is a laser, there are a couple red crosses, shoot them. Now expect to get ganked, players here will kill you' And was sent on my merry way.

Did the NPE stop telling people they can die anywhere and anytime? If not, then every one of those new players knew what he was in for, and if it was, CCP done screwed up, because you can die anywhere and anytime in EVE, and every single one of us needs to understand that.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#148 - 2012-03-21 19:55:10 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
Suicide ganking in a 1.0 system is a bannable offense.

Actually, it's not. I petitioned this the other night because there was a Hulk in a 1.0 botting and it was pissing me off.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#149 - 2012-03-21 19:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Chandaris wrote:
Personally I think the easiest way to deal with this is as follows, as it makes sense within the rules of the sandbox:

Any outlaw who jumps into hisec immediately receives GCC.

This would choke and mostly end highsec ganking. if people really wanted to rat up their sec to gank something extra shiny, they easily could. but it would stop the daily **** of hulks and maks and lower prices across the board, and get more noobs sticking with the game


I can rat up my security status from -9.75 to -1.99 (empire-ready) in roughly three days.

How long does it take you to save up for your new Hulks?

PS: EVE needs less lol rules-lawyering and more awesome player-wrangling.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Kessiaan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2012-03-21 20:04:26 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
Personally I think the easiest way to deal with this is as follows, as it makes sense within the rules of the sandbox:

Any outlaw who jumps into hisec immediately receives GCC.

This would choke and mostly end highsec ganking. if people really wanted to rat up their sec to gank something extra shiny, they easily could. but it would stop the daily **** of hulks and maks and lower prices across the board, and get more noobs sticking with the game


Angry & clueless - this is one of the main reasons people gank miners. (this would stop exactly no-one, since it's only a small step up from the current outlaw mechanics and practically everyone who's been an outlaw for a long period of time has logistics alts that can travel empire freely)

Personally I think mining needs a top-to-bottom overhaul, as was suggested earlier in this thread, and has for a long time.

KB Link
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#151 - 2012-03-21 20:09:09 UTC
Kessiaan wrote:
Wolf Kruol wrote:
It always amazes me how miners whine about everything. They get mostly what they want from CCP dev's to make it more difficult for gankers to do there work and for less profits.


CCP has a twisted sense of humor. Miners have gotten everything they asked for, yet each time the highsec bears who can't/won't defend themselves and cry the most end up worse off.

- Stealing from cans used to not give aggression. Now it does.
- Hopping in & out of an alliance to drop a wardec used to be an exploit. Now it's not.
- Suicide ganking no longer pays out insurance.


I must be slow, but how do the last two make miners "worse" off?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#152 - 2012-03-21 20:13:58 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Kessiaan wrote:
Wolf Kruol wrote:
It always amazes me how miners whine about everything. They get mostly what they want from CCP dev's to make it more difficult for gankers to do there work and for less profits.


CCP has a twisted sense of humor. Miners have gotten everything they asked for, yet each time the highsec bears who can't/won't defend themselves and cry the most end up worse off.

- Stealing from cans used to not give aggression. Now it does.
- Hopping in & out of an alliance to drop a wardec used to be an exploit. Now it's not.
- Suicide ganking no longer pays out insurance.


I must be slow, but how do the last two make miners "worse" off?

Player response.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The wardec mechanics are easily abusable, making wardecs a useless retalliation.

Gankees seem to feel ganking became even more prevalent.

They are quite likely right. Who ganks for insurance? The players pushed back.

Now we haz waaahburgers and frenchcries!!!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#153 - 2012-03-21 20:14:25 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
Suicide ganking in a 1.0 system is a bannable offense.

Learn the rules. GMs frown upon ganking in starter system, and will eventually take action if you grief in those systems, however ganking is part of the game everywhere.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#154 - 2012-03-21 20:34:32 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
Suicide ganking in a 1.0 system is a bannable offense.
Try to keep up.


Well, you sure do know game mechanics to speak with such authority, don't you? Oh wait, apparently you don't know it as well as you think. Can baiting in starter systems is a bannable offense. But of course the game of broken telephone that is the spread of (mis)information in EVE by people like you somehow made it into "gank in 1.0 and get banned".

Chandaris wrote:
Personally I think the easiest way to deal with this is as follows, as it makes sense within the rules of the sandbox:

Any outlaw who jumps into hisec immediately receives GCC.

This would choke and mostly end highsec ganking. if people really wanted to rat up their sec to gank something extra shiny, they easily could. but it would stop the daily **** of hulks and maks and lower prices across the board, and get more noobs sticking with the game


Wow, yeah, no. I'm not -10 though I did end up close more than once (just by engaging people who wanted to fight in low sec... heh, working as intended.....Roll). On the multidimensional spectrum that is occupations in EVE I'm far closer to the industrial type than to the ruthless ganker who would pop their own mother's Hulk if they saw her mining in a belt Pirate I think that what you said is fucktarded idea. Do you really need the popo to hold your hand while you cross the street? It will have a detrimental effect on the casual suicide ganker, but not only would it not deter the determined people, it will make the game much more obnoxious for them, and they have a right to play the game the way the want to within the bounds of EULA.

There are ways to make mining better and bring miners back to belts. Giving every red low sec pi a GCC in high sec every time they enter it is absolutely not the way to do it. And getting rid of suicide ganking is getting rid of valid emergent gameplay, kiiiind of the thing that EVE is about in part.

lol you.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#155 - 2012-03-21 20:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Darth Gustav wrote:
The problem is that the average PvP'er is literally too dumb to live, also.



FIXED

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#156 - 2012-03-21 21:02:54 UTC
The fact that it's so popular to gank miners says to me that these folks are plain old bored to tears with other aspects of the game. Ganking miners would be a total waste of time if there was something better to do.

Nullsec is a blobfest, dominated by massive alliances where individual players are like worker ants. Lowsec is just useless anarchy. Highsec is where the game is (for the non-worker ant players) these days, as sad as that is. Everyone who can't get into alliance style gameplay is there.

CCP really has to figure out a way to make lowsec into a place where "casual" PvPers play, with meaningful things to shoot at.

When people talk about EvE they always say its a game where individual players can make a difference. Maybe that was before these massive alliances took over null?

Does blowing up miners actualy make a difference that isn't negative to the overall game? In some ways, we players are spoiling a great game with this sort of trivial gameplay.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#157 - 2012-03-21 21:40:25 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
The fact that it's so popular to gank miners says to me that these folks are plain old bored to tears with other aspects of the game.


Unfortunately that is completely wrong. It has nothing to do with boredom. They are ganking miners for one or both of two reasons.
1) It's very profitable to do so within the current game mechanics
2) Because they enjoy the reactions they get out of the players they do it to.


Profit favors the prepared
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#158 - 2012-03-21 21:44:39 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Unfortunately that is completely wrong. It has nothing to do with boredom. They are ganking miners for one or both of two reasons.
1) It's very profitable to do so within the current game mechanics
2) Because they enjoy the reactions they get out of the players they do it to.

Forgot one:
3. Because they're botting.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#159 - 2012-03-21 22:30:44 UTC
Quote:
I hate to say it, but I fully agree.. As much as my corp gets lols out of blowing miners to ****, all it is doing is driving new players away from the game for a handful of lols. .


Then tell your corp to stop killing retrievers and cruisers and start killing hulks and macks. Coz those aint new players.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#160 - 2012-03-21 23:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Ana Vyr wrote:
Nullsec is a blobfest, dominated by massive alliances where individual players are like worker ants. Lowsec is just useless anarchy. Highsec is where the game is (for the non-worker ant players) these days, as sad as that is. Everyone who can't get into alliance style gameplay is there.

Interesting you mention worker ants and miners. They're pretty worker antish mining all that stuff and carting it back home.
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
I hate to say it, but I fully agree.. As much as my corp gets lols out of blowing miners to ****, all it is doing is driving new players away from the game for a handful of lols. .

Then tell your corp to stop killing retrievers and cruisers and start killing hulks and macks. Coz those aint new players.

Why would someone gank a mining osprey? Retrievers too, I guess.

Covetors take a good bit of training though. Do they drop nice things?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?