EVE General Discussion

Another bitter vet alt forum troll post.

Was expecting something interesting, left disappointed.

You don't have to get it. You just need to realise that some people do like avatars as well as ships.

WiS is a natural extension of the old EVE, it won't effect the old EVE. Plus WiS opens up a whole new set of possibilities.

But I doubt you'll see much of anything being done with WiS, until Dust 514 is up and running (plus a few patches).


I'm all for WiS as long as they keep working on other things in EVE as well as.

I am glad you brought this topic up OP, it is good to see a different perspective on why you started EVE. I think so many people joined on the backs of videos of huge space battles, we forget that what draws one person to the game, isn't what draws another

The debate about WiS isn't going to go away soon, it has been around since the beta in one version or another. The earliest betas made it obvious that walking in the stations was planned, and I wondered for years why CCP didn't really execute on that original design. In the mean time they created this world outside of the stations of EVE that is a living breathing place and now come to the point where people are legitimately questioning if any attention at all should be placed on WiS at all.

From my perspective, most of this argument comes from CCP's ideas of what exactly an avatar IS. I love spaceships, and EVE's character creator is really something spectacular, but I don't think CCP realizes that I really don't consider what is created in the character creator *my* Avatar. In EVE, my SHIP is my Avatar and my portrait is something more along the lines of character back ground.

I think much of the discontent regarding Incarna comes from what felt (to me at any rate) like an attempt by CCP to move that Avatar in my mind from my ship, which I care about, to my character model which I never have given a damn about. CCP completely mis-understood how people connected to this game emotionally and their attempt to change that relationship resulted in an understandable emotional response. Their motivations were good, they wanted to engage players in the world more, they just misunderstood what EVE players value and how they connect emotionally to the game. Had they created a NEX store full of ship wingy bits, decals and paint schemes, which were destroyed with the ships rather than shoes and pants and ludicrously expensive eye wear, I think the EVE community would have flipped its lid with joy and the only sound would be of wallets opening and people dumping money as fast as their bank accounts would allow.

But does all that mean that CCP shouldn't continue to work on WiS..? no. CCP needs to expand the appeal of EVE to other gaming segments, but they are going about it completely the wrong way. EVE should be EVE, and developed with spaceships first and foremost, but that doesn't stop CCP from expanding to other properties that tie into the EVE universe and effectively give us WiS without messing about with EVE: A Game About Spaceships. I think that CCP has made some rather bad strategic decisions and now has to eat a bunch of mistakes that they could have avoided. Creating a RPG MMO is a fantastic idea, creating one based on a property with which you have no familiarity based on an IP that was niche when it was popular and is almost unheard of now.. wasn't a good idea. A vampire MMO was and remains a stupid idea for a company like CCP. Instead of creating a whole new world with a customer base that CCP has no familiarity with and no tie in too, they should have set their MMO in the world of New Eden and used the considerable development investment in EVE as a launch pad to gain audience and players. I have far more friends who love to hear about EVE, read about EVE and watch videos about EVE than who actually play the damn game. Most love the concept and the news, but wouldn't sign up for a trial if it was free forever cause they just aren't into this kind of game play. They would, however, climb over broken glass to play an MMO set in this universe.

From the looks of things, CCP is now relying on DUST to bring this tie in to EVE. That is a very risky proposition. Even good shooters, with tie in universes and good reviews like Space Marine are finding it a hard slog in the FPS market. I think CCP has a good concept and likely has a good game, but it takes more than that to succeed in that particular market and CCP has no experience in the segment at all. I would love to see them dump the White Wolf IP but keep working on the tech and transfer the work done to an EVE themed MMORPG. Rather than continuing working on a lame duck, they should put their efforts into creating an ecosystem of interconnected games that both expand the audience and feed each other. With three different options and three different play styles (EVE, FPS and MMORPG) set inside a single universe CCP could reach their maximum potential audience and since it is all the same world, many of the development costs could be shared or avoided all together. By putting in a MMORPG element, it would mitigate some of the risk that CCP is taking on by entering the FPS market. CCP has a proven track record in MMOs and EVE has an established audience. A EVE themed MMO is a pretty safe bet for CCP.

Realistically.. I don't think that anyone will buy the White Wolf property, it was a bad bet then and it remains a bad bet now. CCP is going to have to put out something to please investors, and I don't think it will do very well. Hopefully the tech that is developed can be leveraged for EVE and the property will do well enough it can be sold to another development studio. At the very least it will allow CCP to progress with Carbon, which is key to WiS. It will be a loss, but lets hope it is a necessarily one to advance CCPs core business which is both the game of EVE and the world of New Eden.

I heard all this stuff has been worked on and implemented, but they changed it from WIS to STO.

Please read more of the thread, I think you misunderstand.

nazzer please understand that the forums are some of the best PVP you will find... this guy is just trying to troll you in to a hernia...

I'd just like to add that I, like the OP, was drawn to the game by WiS. When I first tried Eve years ago, I hated it. There were several reasons why, but one of them was I felt like I was a spaceship, not a man flying a spaceship. I just couldn't get into the game knowing that all my character would ever be is a picture in the corner of the screen. When I heard about Incarna, I gave Eve another go, and stuck with it.

Now, needless to say WiS isn't MORE important than Fis, but both have a place in Eve, and anyone saying otherwise is just plain wrong. If someone plays Eve for Nullsec PvP, great. Good for them. If they play it to manipulate the market, and earn billions, again thats fine. Whats wrong with someone enjoying creating an avatar and enjoying that? Personally I enjoy many aspects of Eve, but Incarna is what ties it all together for me. CCP is a big team, and I'm sure they can manage to work on FiS/WiS at the same time if they really put their minds to it. Aslong as they don't abandon any one part of the game, theres no problem at all.

Basically, all the anti-WiS people are just being selfish. You don't see WiS fans complaining when CCP add new ships. Nor will you see them complaining when Inferno rolls out and updates FW etc. We don't have to pick WiS or Fis, we can have both. And ultimately it will benefit EvE to do so.

Also, ps3ud0nym, i understand you feel as though your ship is your avatar, but not everyone feels that way. To me, a ship is just that. A ship. Sooner or later it will get exploded and replaced. I have no emotional ties to my ships, other than "ah, my first cruiser. Sure did serve me well" I do agree though that NeX ships skins etc. would have been great, and probably sold like hotcakes. Having a ship as my avatar stopped me playing Eve for years. I suppose CCP will have a hard time catering to everyone, but I don't see why they can't make a compromise. Even now, you can disable CQ and never see your avatar in the flesh again. I just hope CCP don't listen to the vocal minority on these forums(I doubt even 10% of eve players come here) and ignore WiS altogether. Especially when it would be so easy to cater to FiS and WiS at the same time.

I really want to see more WiS myself, but I think that tackling it as some sort of extension to EVE is not going to work. The majority of the players now have some sort of emotional attachment to their ships (Or at least the isk.. hence why "tears" are such a motivator, if people weren't attached emotionally to the ship, they wouldn't cry when they lose it) and many of those people see any attempt to expand WiS as taking away from EVE: A Game About Spaceships. That is why I was suggesting decoupling the entire process. Make it another entirely separate game with interaction between EVE pilots and New Eden MMO players occurring in the stations.

CCP seems to be of the mind that it isn't possible for a player to become emotionally attached to a ship and have made design decisions (Incarna in its entirety) based on that assumption. It is one explanation for why they though removing ship spinning wouldn't be an issue. The idea that people were emotionally connected to a object that was completely non-human in form wasn't something that CCP had ever considered before. They aren't going to be able to reverse that trend, and as 99.9% of EVE's content is in space, there really isn't a need for the avatar of EVE players to be anything BUT a Spaceship. By making an MMO that is separate but connected to EVE, the players who really do need a humanoid avatar to connect emotionally will both have a reason to play, and content that will interest them. If you can't connect with a spaceship, you aren't as likely to enjoy the kinds of activities that EVE provides and different content would suit you better, content that is more designed to be experienced as a Avatar in a MMORPG.

I didn't complain, sir. I yearned, and I posted about my yearning, but the tone of my post wasn't one of complaint, I hope.