Assembly Hall

This is very confusing and should be clarified:

This page has a link called "Reporting scams and exploits." When you click on the link you get the following instructions:

"If you notice someone using scams, exploits or cheats within the game, please file a petition to let us know. "

However, in the first link there is also a link titled "Scams and exploits" which reads:



So, why advise players to report scams via petition if there is nothing the Support Team can do for you? Yes, we all know scams are allowed in Eve as advised by the "scams" link...unless you're new. The reference to scams should be removed from the links page first reference as well as the second link advising people petition scams.

Also, the wording in the page on scams and exploits is very confusing because it seems to use the word "scam" and "exploit" interchangeably instead of making a clear differentiation in some parts. For example, using "How can I fight those who exploit me?" as a title for how to report exploits, and then giving tips for avoiding scams in the same paragraph keeps the line blurred for new players.

While you're at it, a list of all of the "scam rules" in the EULA would be helpful instead of just relying on word of mouth or scattered info/posts to keep people from doing things like running GTC scams, PLEX for Good scams, recruitment channel scams, impersonation scams, loan scams, character exchange scams, etc.

Not true. Scamming someone in the in-game recruitment channel is not allowed. Running a scam pretending to be CCP in-game is not allowed. Loan scams in-game are not allowed. Etc. Not to mention your point is completely invalidated by the language used. "If you notice someone using scams, exploits or cheats within the game, please file a petition to let us know. "



There are only a few exceptions to the rule that in-game scams are allowed. Why not "literally" post them in one place...in the link about scams perhaps? There's room for 20 "tips" on avoiding scams but not enough for the 5 or so scams that are prohibited?

I think you're confusing judgment with experience/knowledge. How would a new player who has heard all about how "it's okay to scam on Eve" know about the exceptions? You take for granted the things you've heard about the subject scattered over the time you have been playing.

Same way everyone else learned. Ask people in the help channel, local, corp, alliance, forums, voices in your head etc etc etc.

And no, I am not confusing judgement with experience. Judgement is something we all have, even new players. If you are in any doubt, petition it. Simple as that.

Because people in the "help" channel, alliance, corp and LOCAL are so reliable. Really?

Also, the whole point of the suggestion is to REDUCE the number of unnecessary petitions to CCP. This would speed up the replies to valid petitions which is a good thing, right? I really don't understand the resistance to simply posting an "official" list of scams that are not allowed and then letting people "use their common sense" or the petition system to apply the rules.

Ah, so we have finally arrived at the heart of your true objections. You want to see "security by obscurity" enforced when it comes to scamming and you object to clarifying the rules because you WANT new players who try to scam to get banned over the confusion caused.

Welp.

I hate to break it to you but everyone already knows scamming is allowed on Eve. Frankly, if you ask any gamer who doesn't play Eve if they're heard of Eve, and they have, they usually reply with something like "Oh yeah, that's the game where you can scam other players." The reason is all of the publicity the big scams get outside of Eve.

It's unfair to glamorize the fact that scams are legal on Eve and then keep the rules about scamming so murky that a new player has a good chance of getting banned for violating a "rule" that is buried in a dev blog somewhere years ago. I find your attitude of secretly hoping new players get banned for wanting to try something Eve is famous for revolting. I also find your lack of knowledge expressed in your very first reply sentence about how "all in-game scams are allowed" telling as to your knowledge of this subject and what you have to offer in this thread. It's just not true...provably not true. Go troll elsewhere.

PS: My blog has a nice little guide on running some common Eve scams. It should be far more helpful than a list of the 5 or so scams not allowed, and it's in my sig. So as you can see, you and I have very differing opinions on the subject of providing info on how to scam to new players.

You know, if the last suggestion in my post was implemented, you wouldn't have to keep qualifying everything you post with IIRC. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Also, not only have you not addressed the primary subject of the topic, but you have so far failed to make your point about why a list of disallowed scams in CCP's page on the subject is a bad idea. New players are far more likely to hear that "scams are legal in Eve" than they are to hear "long-standing rules" that aren't stated in the EULA. These new players are dropped into ... where else... noob systems. So where are they more than likely to try their first scam?

Again, why not just POST THE RULES on scams on the page about scams?

Sir, I believe by your own standards you are disqualified.

I say 'IIRC' because I'm working off of my memory, which isn't always perfect, since I don't scam. I could go look up the exact info for sure, but it isn't worth the time to me, I'd rather just use the disclaimer of 'IIRC' (I'd say the exact same thing even if CCP did have a site to look up scams).

And the Recruitment channel has a warning in the MotD warning against scamming (last I checked atleast) and a first-time-offender noob scamming in a noob system because he didn't know better won't get punished. He'll get a warning against doing it again and he'll either learn from that and not scam there again or get punished for it if he knowingly continues.

And I didn't say I'm opposed to posting the rules about scamming anywhere, but since it's just one line ("no scamming in Recruitment or the rookie systems") there's not much point in it. Besides the fact that having a list of forbidden scams opens CCP up to people doing something that's not covered and then the player saying "but you didn't specifically tell me I couldn't do that" as an excuse. The current system puts the burden on the players to follow the spirit of the rule, rather thatn putting the burden on CCP to cover any possible loophole there might be.

And mxzf wins another thread. Congratulations sir.

Basically this.