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Food for Thought
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Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#21 - 2011-09-22 21:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Leeroy McJenkins wrote:
Othran wrote:
It is quite hard to understand the rationale here.

Supercarriers cannot be built anywhere but sov null so why on earth are they allowed in Empire?

If they are allowed in Empire then the facilities to build them in Empire should exist.

If not then they should stay in null - same with titans too, a titan bridge into Empire is ridiculously overpowered.

NB - low-sec IS Empire for the terminally confused.



Next lets have Concord in ALL of Empire, because it is empire right? The NPC should be able to police it the same way they police highsec, amirite? Blink



ShockedOh, for...Roll!

All these slippery slope-riding straw-men in this thread: They burn, they buuuuurrrrn...!

A single, grossly-overpowered hull being brought into some kind of balance vis-a-vis non-super-blob PvP--read, everywhere else in the game that isn't sov zerosec--is not even remotely the same as pussifying lowsec in general, the two have nothing intrinsic to do with each other, and one does not in any way, shape, or form, imply the other!

FFS, man....Ugh

Learn how to argue, then come talk to me.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Leeroy McJenkins
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-09-23 15:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Leeroy McJenkins
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Leeroy McJenkins wrote:
Othran wrote:
It is quite hard to understand the rationale here.

Supercarriers cannot be built anywhere but sov null so why on earth are they allowed in Empire?

If they are allowed in Empire then the facilities to build them in Empire should exist.

If not then they should stay in null - same with titans too, a titan bridge into Empire is ridiculously overpowered.

NB - low-sec IS Empire for the terminally confused.



Next lets have Concord in ALL of Empire, because it is empire right? The NPC should be able to police it the same way they police highsec, amirite? Blink



ShockedOh, for...Roll!

All these slippery slope-riding straw-men in this thread: They burn, they buuuuurrrrn...!

A single, grossly-overpowered hull being brought into some kind of balance vis-a-vis non-super-blob PvP--read, everywhere else in the game that isn't sov zerosec--is not even remotely the same as pussifying lowsec in general, the two have nothing intrinsic to do with each other, and one does not in any way, shape, or form, imply the other!

FFS, man....Ugh

Learn how to argue, then come talk to me.



Would it make a difference if it was 100 hurricanes dropped on the 15 man gang instead of a few token supercarriers? This is EVE, R A P E happens, just like 1 or 2 guys being caught by the 15 man gang. There are going to be groups that are more organized and possess superior firepower. The only reason people are pissy about SCs now is because certain groups are turning them out like hotcakes and dropping em on everything. There isn't anything wrong with the ships themselves, its a 20 bil ship so it shouldnt be utter shat like it used to be. But they have become much easier to acquire than they used to be. TBH they should just try to increase the costs of making an SC to equal that of say a titan and make a titan even more ridonkculously expensive, then there would be less individuals with personal solopwnmobiles.

I Don't play EVE
Othran
Route One
#23 - 2011-09-23 16:19:24 UTC
Leeroy McJenkins wrote:
Othran wrote:
It is quite hard to understand the rationale here.

Supercarriers cannot be built anywhere but sov null so why on earth are they allowed in Empire?

If they are allowed in Empire then the facilities to build them in Empire should exist.

If not then they should stay in null - same with titans too, a titan bridge into Empire is ridiculously overpowered.

NB - low-sec IS Empire for the terminally confused.



Next lets have Concord in ALL of Empire, because it is empire right? The NPC should be able to police it the same way they police highsec, amirite? Blink


All I'm saying is that if supercaps/titans can't be built in Empire then they got no place in Empire.

That seems fair - remember its going to be a hell of a lot harder to keep a POS building supercaps alive in low-sec than it is 20 hops into sov space.

Alternatively you can leave it as is - makes no odds to me, a supercap in low-sec is just something to avoid. Unless you got multiple supercaps yourself then there's zero point in engaging as he can logoffski easy enough. Makes for boredom all around as PL found in Amamake (again).
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-09-23 16:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

If even an unescorted SC gets jumped in lowsec, then all he really has to do is pull a logoffski, and 99.9% of the time, that 15 minutes won't be anywhere near long enough to kill him (ca. 36mn EHP for a pimped-out Nyx according to EFT, I misremember the exact number.).

Sounds like easy-mode to me.

other side: small frigate with cloak. is enters system, gets off a gates or station. puts on cloak.
then you can force thousands of Eve players to fight this small frigate. but you can't do anything about it.

And you can't do anything about pilot docked in station (yet, hehe).

So why you focus on SCs? I would care more about cloakers.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#25 - 2011-09-23 23:25:30 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

If even an unescorted SC gets jumped in lowsec, then all he really has to do is pull a logoffski, and 99.9% of the time, that 15 minutes won't be anywhere near long enough to kill him (ca. 36mn EHP for a pimped-out Nyx according to EFT, I misremember the exact number.).

Sounds like easy-mode to me.

other side: small frigate with cloak. is enters system, gets off a gates or station. puts on cloak.
then you can force thousands of Eve players to fight this small frigate. but you can't do anything about it.

And you can't do anything about pilot docked in station (yet, hehe).

So why you focus on SCs? I would care more about cloakers.


Why are you harping on cloaks? Don't like having your NPC-botting interfered with?

If that cloaked frigate fucks up even once, then he will almost certainly die, and quickly.

Even if the SC pilot fucks up, he is still essentially un-killable by anything but another SC-blob, which, unless I'm very much mistaken, runs diametrically opposite to what this whole game's core ethos is supposed to be: No rewards/power without risk, greater rewards and power = greater risk.

The cloaky can't be stupid about it, and knows it, or should.

The stupid SC pilot knows being stupid won't hurt him, in any practical terms, and he can immediately cancel out all the risks that every other pilot cannot, just by hitting "CTRL-Q."


TL/DR:

Because SCs are grotesquely over-powered and **** all over what this game's core-concepts are supposed to be on so many levels, it's not even funny.

Cloakers do not.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#26 - 2011-09-23 23:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Leeroy McJenkins wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Leeroy McJenkins wrote:
Othran wrote:
It is quite hard to understand the rationale here.

Supercarriers cannot be built anywhere but sov null so why on earth are they allowed in Empire?

If they are allowed in Empire then the facilities to build them in Empire should exist.

If not then they should stay in null - same with titans too, a titan bridge into Empire is ridiculously overpowered.

NB - low-sec IS Empire for the terminally confused.



Next lets have Concord in ALL of Empire, because it is empire right? The NPC should be able to police it the same way they police highsec, amirite? Blink



ShockedOh, for...Roll!

All these slippery slope-riding straw-men in this thread: They burn, they buuuuurrrrn...!

A single, grossly-overpowered hull being brought into some kind of balance vis-a-vis non-super-blob PvP--read, everywhere else in the game that isn't sov zerosec--is not even remotely the same as pussifying lowsec in general, the two have nothing intrinsic to do with each other, and one does not in any way, shape, or form, imply the other!

FFS, man....Ugh

Learn how to argue, then come talk to me.



Would it make a difference if it was 100 hurricanes dropped on the 15 man gang instead of a few token supercarriers? This is EVE, R A P E happens, just like 1 or 2 guys being caught by the 15 man gang. There are going to be groups that are more organized and possess superior firepower. The only reason people are pissy about SCs now is because certain groups are turning them out like hotcakes and dropping em on everything. There isn't anything wrong with the ships themselves, its a 20 bil ship so it shouldnt be utter shat like it used to be. But they have become much easier to acquire than they used to be. TBH they should just try to increase the costs of making an SC to equal that of say a titan and make a titan even more ridonkculously expensive, then there would be less individuals with personal solopwnmobiles.


Those 100 'Canes typically have to travel conventionally, through gates, and if your small gang has eyes/scouts, will probably see them coming, and can avoid them. Others will also see them coming, and those others may decide to try and get a piece of them, and there will be stragglers to pick off almost certainly.

The mum-drop just needs a single Kestrel, with a point or three in its' mid-slots, land on-grid, light the cyno, and BANG--"It's hot-drop o'CLOOOOOOOCK!"

That mum-drop can go pretty much anywhere in the universe, instantly, and you never see it coming (unless you have spies in their corp/Alliance, but does everyone have spies in these care-bear/RMT empires? I tend to doubt it, a proper spy/mole that could actually do some real damage if needed, takes a looooooong time to cultivate.). And they assume no risk to travel that distance, and very little to none during the actual drop/gank.

The 'Canes, on the other hand, are very much at risk, for the reasons stated, as well as lag and similar issues (they don't have the EHP to sacrifice to a even a few seconds too many of black-screening, a mum in most lowsec situations could black-screen for 20 minutes, and no worries.).

A ship that costs ca. ISK 20Bn for the chassis alone should not be turned out like hot-cakes. And we all know how the money for that is being generated, don't we.

Maybe they shouldn't be nerfed, per se, but there needs to be some way to ensure that they comply with what EVE's core ethos is supposed to be:

More power = access to more potential rewards, but also = much more risk, and much more effort to mitigate same.

SCs as they are now are for all practical purposes, invincible in almost any situation outside of massive zero-sec fleet battles, and even that depends on the other side having the only real counter to SCs: Namely, more SCs.

Too little risk, far too little effort, with far too great rewards.

Something is badly out of order, here.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-09-24 04:22:11 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Even if the SC pilot fucks up, he is still essentially un-killable by anything but another SC-blob, which, unless I'm very much mistaken, runs diametrically opposite to what this whole game's core ethos is supposed to be: No rewards/power without risk, greater rewards and power = greater risk.

The cloaky can't be stupid about it, and knows it, or should.

The stupid SC pilot knows being stupid won't hurt him, in any practical terms, and he can immediately cancel out all the risks that every other pilot cannot, just by hitting "CTRL-Q."


If you haven't figured out the way to kill (in your scenario) a solo supercarrier, you are bad at this game.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#28 - 2011-09-24 08:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Even if the SC pilot fucks up, he is still essentially un-killable by anything but another SC-blob, which, unless I'm very much mistaken, runs diametrically opposite to what this whole game's core ethos is supposed to be: No rewards/power without risk, greater rewards and power = greater risk.

The cloaky can't be stupid about it, and knows it, or should.

The stupid SC pilot knows being stupid won't hurt him, in any practical terms, and he can immediately cancel out all the risks that every other pilot cannot, just by hitting "CTRL-Q."


If you haven't figured out the way to kill (in your scenario) a solo supercarrier, you are bad at this game.


And if you don't have access to SCs of your own, then what? Most small-to-midsize losec PvP corps don't, that I can see.

And, you've only got 15 minutes, remember. Can you organise the kind of DPS/alpha needed to break 30+ mn. EHP, get it there, and then batter that down in that time? Doesn't seem too realistic an option for the vast majority of players in losec.

1/10, back under your bridge, troll.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-09-24 10:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
And if you don't have access to SCs of your own, then what? Most small-to-midsize losec PvP corps don't, that I can see.


2x heavy neut tempests. You can take down a super in under 15 minutes with as few as 20 of them. If he logoffskis, and is truly solo, it gets even easier because you can bring in dreads and he'll drop like a rock. The only reason you should be complaining about supers is when you get 25+ on grid, because the node just ***** itself as soon as FBs pop out and every module activation gets "Maybe" amended to it.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#30 - 2011-09-24 10:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
And if you don't have access to SCs of your own, then what? Most small-to-midsize losec PvP corps don't, that I can see.


2x heavy neut tempests. You can take down a super in under 15 minutes with as few as 20 of them. If he logoffskis, and is truly solo, it gets even easier because you can bring in dreads and he'll drop like a rock. The only reason you should be complaining about supers is when you get 25+ on grid, because the node just ***** itself as soon as FBs pop out and every module activation gets "Maybe" amended to it.


Hmmmm...some quick EFT-warrioring tells me that, depending on how he's fit, and which mods he keeps running, four heavy neuts should have him cap-dead in ca. 5-8 minutes.

OK, I'm liking this Twisted

(Chuckles...oooh, I'm really liking this. Time to get on TeamSpeak, and see who else is on, methinks Twisted)

Question:

How dangerous are fighter-bombers to BS', assuming the BS keep moving, stays out of web-range (iirc, some officer webs can overheat out to typical meta 4/T II/lower-end faction heavy-neut range?) and keeps MWD use to a minimum, though?

Yeah, the noob-ness is strong and all, but I've never flown an SC--my experiences with them involve either running away/hiding from, or staring at a black screen for half an hour--and don't expect to anytime soon (properly kept, and only flown when properly supported, they just seem like a big pain in the arse for their pilots, tbqfh.).

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#31 - 2011-09-29 09:28:34 UTC
Rumpity-bumpity!

@CCP:

We can has Tier II/Tech II Battlecruiser chassis based Heavy Stealth Bombers soon, not Soon(TM), pls?

1) 5-6 capital torp. launchers
2) same role boni for the missiles as frigate Stealth bombers
2) covops cloak- and covert cyno-capabilty, infinipoint, covert jump-bridge transit
4) T II resists/tank
5) Fitting room for at least 1 neut

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Malken
Sleiipniir
#32 - 2011-09-29 10:34:46 UTC
the supercaps were introduced as a tool for the big alliances to use for big alliance 0.0 wars.
a few screwups later and everyone and their mom also uses it for hotdrops in lowsec.
that is not what they were intended to be used for.

it is a tool for big alliances so a big nerf to them and then stop them from entering lowsec also.
they are built in nullsec and should be used in nullsec also.
i have no problems with carriers and dreads being in lowsec as they are much more killable by a battleship group then a supercap is.

☻/ /▌ / \
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#33 - 2011-09-29 10:38:26 UTC
Aeon costs 10,2bil by materials atm. not 20 so get your numbers right ... P

If super caps couldn't enter low sec there would a huge amount moon goo changing hands in Aridia and other low sec regions.

Yes CCP please make this happen. Twisted

PS. The other day my POS in low sec was mauled by 7 titans and several SC's (just for the kicks it seems) this took about 5mins I think ...

Ordinary caps are fine since you need a sizeable number of those anyway and they can be countered with BS fleets if necessary.
Morpheonus
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2011-09-29 11:01:23 UTC
a quick point, a super capital is just that, a SUPER capital, it shouldnt even have to worry about adjusting its course to miss bumping sub caps off the ecliptic, let alone be taken out by BS or smaller hulls.

The only feasible way to take out a super, and the only correct way, is to attack it (and its fleet) with the same amount of isk value in ships, if you want to make 50 supers scared and want to log, then you damn well better have hundreds of billions of isk at stake on the battlefield.

Anything less than this, means you are punishing people for reaching the pinnacle of EVE, and yes, that IS flying supers. No is not your mad leet cruiser pvp skillz, or your crazy FC ability that gets over hyped, its flying capitals, and then SUPERS.

These ships should wreak havoc to hundreds of smaller hulls, a fleet of them should only ever quake, at a bigger fleet of them. this is not a broken game mechanic, THATS LIFE.



ergo... eve is life? mwuhuahahaaha
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#35 - 2011-09-29 11:44:13 UTC
Morpheonus wrote:
a quick point, a super capital is just that, a SUPER capital, it shouldnt even have to worry about adjusting its course to miss bumping sub caps off the ecliptic, let alone be taken out by BS or smaller hulls.

The only feasible way to take out a super, and the only correct way, is to attack it (and its fleet) with the same amount of isk value in ships, if you want to make 50 supers scared and want to log, then you damn well better have hundreds of billions of isk at stake on the battlefield.

Anything less than this, means you are punishing people for reaching the pinnacle of EVE, and yes, that IS flying supers. No is not your mad leet cruiser pvp skillz, or your crazy FC ability that gets over hyped, its flying capitals, and then SUPERS.

These ships should wreak havoc to hundreds of smaller hulls, a fleet of them should only ever quake, at a bigger fleet of them. this is not a broken game mechanic, THATS LIFE.



ergo... eve is life? mwuhuahahaaha


-10/10.

Back under your bridge you go!

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
whaynethepain
#36 - 2011-10-06 14:56:58 UTC
Personally I would like to see a Titan in every fleet.

Making this possible would probably involve making them a little more tougher and a little more jump-able.

Can't understand how they get in low-sec, but I am so against a "nerf", mostly because it is a type of theft.

Spending billions on skills and equipment, to be later told it is made redundant, means, and I quote;

"The offence of theft is set out in s.1(1) Theft Act 1968 which provides that a person is guilty of theft if they dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it. Ss 2-6 Theft Act 1968 provide definitions of each of the elements of theft. S. 7 sets out the maximum penalty for theft of 7 years."

The question would be, is it honest to disappropriate the supa pilots of their years of hard work, by depriving its use.

Intellectual property counts.

Obviously even a space cadet knows I have transcended a few integral bounds, and gone off the track a little.

But nerfing the supa cos the militia gets hot-dropped every time they get in a BS, may not be ideal, or contemporary.

Providing a counter measure is how things work best. Ideally the supa would be boarded and the crew slaughtered, making the Titan a bit less effective, this seems a better direction.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2011-10-06 18:27:42 UTC
There are two core problems with Supercapitals that I see at this time, which are especially pronounced in low-sec:

Combat assymetry
It requires multiple supercapitals to have a good chance at taking down one other supercapital. There are nearly no shipclasses who need multiple of their own class to be taken down. In fact, most ships in EVE can be taken down by ships many classes below their own:

6x Battleships vs. 1x Battleship: near certain
6x Battlecruiser vs. 1x Battleship: sure
6x Cruiser vs. 1x Battleship: likely
6x Frigates vs. 1x Battleship: possible

6x Supercarrier vs. 1x Supercarrier: possible
6x Carrier vs. 1x Supercarrier: impossible
6x Battleship vs. 1x Supercarrier: impossible
6x Battlecruiser vs. 1x Supercarrier: impossible

In other words, supercarriers create an unbalance gap between the classes.

Self-reinforcement
If some thing can be countered only by more of the same thing, you will get a self-reinforcing trend. The more supercapitals are build, the bigger the need will become to have one yourself.

Bringing a supercapital to low-sec is putting out a big sign that says: "bring more supercapitals yourself or don't bother". That is not healthy for gameplay.

Combining opposed attributes
Good warfare games (and RTS games) usually have different units on offer. These units tend to have a mix of abilities to make for an interesting paper-scissor-stone kind of gameplay. Unit with good armor and heavy firepower tend to be slow and not very stealthy, and vice versa.

Supercapitals have good armor, high firepower, high mobility and high stealth (hotdrops). This is a dumb combination of attributes for any game that has no clear end. Obviously everyone would want to have one of these in the end, because the combination of attributes beat all others.

Remove the ability for supercapitals to cyno (and give them the ability to use stargates), and make them have superslow warp speeds, so that it takes literally days to move them from one end of the galaxy to the other. Then you will have balanced some attributes. Armor and firepower at the expense of mobility and suprise.

Also: this is why aircraft carriers have been so dominant in modern naval warfare. They are sturdy, fast and have high firepower. With them a lot of ship classes become obsolete. But EVE is not a simulator, it is a game. And in games more meaningful options usually translates to more fun. It is not fun game to just meet other aircraft carriers plus a few small support vessels at sea.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2011-10-07 04:16:18 UTC
though i would love a heavy bomber, the bigger raven bomber will be killed by FB's, fighters, and probably be primary to everything else.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#39 - 2011-10-07 13:35:18 UTC
Nerfing is not a solution, ccp should boost assaultships enough.

Example , give infinte point for ishkur and make ishkur invulnerable against EW and boost its damage to 10x and let it fit 10 fighter bombers, then game is pretty much balanced in lowsec.
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