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Hulk not worth the investment?
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T'Pawhl
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-03-21 04:55:34 UTC
Hey guys,

I finally finished training up for Hulk on my main and went out and bought one. It cost 220 million ISK. As I was mining with it, I was thinking about Hulkageddon. 220 million ISK is a pretty steep investment, so I decided to pick up a Covetor instead.

Well here's the funny thing, in my Covetor my yield is only a slight bit less. I put the numbers into EFit and even with max skills, I simply don't see a Hulk justifying the investment unless you're mining in blue SOV. I think with T2 crystals the differences was like 8500m3/hour. Which if you're mining Veldspar is only 1.3 million.

The difference is: A Covetor can pay for itself in a couple of days simply via mineral value. A Hulk would take a few weeks.

Unless I'm missing something. Thoughts?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2 - 2012-03-21 05:02:49 UTC
T'Pawhl wrote:
Hey guys,

I finally finished training up for Hulk on my main and went out and bought one. It cost 220 million ISK. As I was mining with it, I was thinking about Hulkageddon. 220 million ISK is a pretty steep investment, so I decided to pick up a Covetor instead.

Well here's the funny thing, in my Covetor my yield is only a slight bit less. I put the numbers into EFit and even with max skills, I simply don't see a Hulk justifying the investment unless you're mining in blue SOV. I think with T2 crystals the differences was like 8500m3/hour. Which if you're mining Veldspar is only 1.3 million.

The difference is: A Covetor can pay for itself in a couple of days simply via mineral value. A Hulk would take a few weeks.

Unless I'm missing something. Thoughts?

Something like that. For the hulk, you get bonuses from Exhumers. Granted, the training from Covetor to Hulk is very fast, so it isn't surprising that there isn't a massive mining yield increase.

Not sure if hulks are artifically expensive because of Hulkageddon (the starter of which seems to be gone or something). Of course other than mining in null (which I don't think most do)... people buying the expensive ship end up using it in highsec counting on the uh "protection" of Concord. Which isn't all that perfect, but still.

The Covetor is very nice for the price, and you get most of the bonuses (still lacking a bit from the perfect hulk as you noted). Depending on having all sorts of support ships around, the mining yield gap will increase, not sure how much .. but then you'd be mining with some expensive ships around, which I think would be more gank-likely targets.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Antal Marius
Allied Operations
Mechanicus Macabre Immortale
#3 - 2012-03-21 05:09:51 UTC
Mining solo in a hulk is doing it wrong. Get yourself a slave in an orca and have it camp next to you with the range and cycle mining boosts and a shield resistance boost. It'll out perform a solo hulk every day, and if you're smart, you can make them pay for themselves. Longer hauls with alot more ore means alot more isk in your pocket. Although upfront costs are steep.
T'Pawhl
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-03-21 05:14:37 UTC
Well checking the 1 year price history, the Hulk has remained stable at 190 million (with two brief dips to 180 million) until the end of January, where it started to climb and is now somewhere around 220-240 depending on where you go. I guess if anything I could wait for it to climb a bit higher and then resell my Hulk for a bit of profit. I don't see myself flying them considering the increasing popularity of coordinated suicide ganking. I mean if my Covetor gets popped it's only 30 mil tops lost.

The Covetor has been stable at 17 mil until, again, the end of February, whence it increased an astounding 5 million ISK. I don't know why anyone flies a Hulk lol.
T'Pawhl
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-03-21 05:15:18 UTC
Antal Marius wrote:
Mining solo in a hulk is doing it wrong. Get yourself a slave in an orca and have it camp next to you with the range and cycle mining boosts and a shield resistance boost. It'll out perform a solo hulk every day, and if you're smart, you can make them pay for themselves. Longer hauls with alot more ore means alot more isk in your pocket. Although upfront costs are steep.


What about a Covetor and an Orca?
Dyniss
KarmaFleet University
#6 - 2012-03-21 07:25:06 UTC
Hulk honestly is not worth the cost you can pick up a Covetor bpc with 3-5 runs for like 2 mil isk. At level 5 the hulk gets a 15% better mining yield big whoop! The Covetor IMO is hands down the more cost effective mine. The only drawbacks are you can't fit 2 mining upgrades (Covetor can fit 1) and the lower resists but cost wise the Covetor is dirt cheap low mineral cost to build too. The hulk cost as much as a dam faction battleship almost and faction battleships get better bonuses to their lesser cousins. Heck T2 cruisers and frigs have better bonuses to their T1 counterparts. The hulk is a rich mans miner the rest are smart and use a Covetor
Dyniss
KarmaFleet University
#7 - 2012-03-21 07:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dyniss
The mackinaw and skiff are actually useful as their bonuses server a purpose where as the Hulk is a small upgrade to the Covetor.
The hulk does have better survivability though but this is pointless as it still very fragile out side of empire. I am also surprised hulks don't get mining bonuses to drones but some combat ships do isn't the hulk a dedicated mining vessel?
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-03-21 08:03:17 UTC
Dyniss wrote:
The mackinaw and skiff are actually useful as their bonuses server a purpose where as the Hulk is a small upgrade to the Covetor.
The hulk does have better survivability though but this is pointless as it still very fragile out side of empire. I am also surprised hulks don't get mining bonuses to drones but some combat ships do isn't the hulk a dedicated mining vessel?


Yes, exactly 0 of the combat ships that have the bonuses are viable combat ships Pirate
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#9 - 2012-03-21 11:14:49 UTC
Dyniss wrote:
The mackinaw and skiff are actually useful as their bonuses server a purpose where as the Hulk is a small upgrade to the Covetor.
The hulk does have better survivability though but this is pointless as it still very fragile out side of empire. I am also surprised hulks don't get mining bonuses to drones but some combat ships do isn't the hulk a dedicated mining vessel?


You can calculate the isk returns in using a hulk over a covetor. Let's say you're running 1M isk / hour more for a hulk; you'll get the ships worth after 200 hours of mining. Let's say you're running 5M+ a hour difference mining in null; you're down to 40 hours of mining. A hulk is a pretty good ice miner as well so it's versatile. A hulk can fit 180+ dps tank with a small shield booster vs. a specific rat type without losing mining upgrades, making it a very viable nullsec solo miner.

For the purpose of highsec mining I would not use a hulk since highsec is way more dangerous to mine in than a blue nullsec system. In null you'll be mining inside anomalies and you can always escape into the safety of a pos.

The mining bonuses to drones (notably arbitrator?) are useful only for baiting purposes. Guess they are there to make the ship a "jack of all trades". A hulk on the other hand can fit a 19k ehp tank while sporting long point + 3700 scanres because of it's inherent 660 scanres, which is rather odd for a mining ship. That's something I'd swap for a mining drone bonus, possibly even a notable 100% as in (5x 20%) one.
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#10 - 2012-03-21 11:18:04 UTC
As a bit of an offtopic hint, I predict nullsec mining and industry is going to be getting a notable buff in Inferno. With drone regions possibly getting a mineral nerf and nullsec mining getting a buff I'd look into forming industrial corps and alliances with your mining friends; you might get better rental / alliance deals :)
Skorpynekomimi
#11 - 2012-03-21 12:18:30 UTC
In highsec? Not really.

For null, where it's designed, used with orca and maybe even rorqual support? Definitely. You can't really tank a covetor worth a damn.

Economic PVP
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-03-21 12:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Yes, Hulks are ridiculously overpriced for their profit making potential.
200mil hull cost to make 2-5mil ISK/hr in hisec or 10-20mil ISK/hr in null?
Compare that to 60-120mil for a level 4 mission BS that can easily make 10-30mil ISK/hr in hi-sec...

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-03-21 13:06:02 UTC
The hulks advantage is about 25% yield and that difference in isk/hour isnt that big until you get orca boosts.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#14 - 2012-03-21 13:18:23 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Yes, Hulks are ridiculously overpriced for their profit making potential.
200mil hull cost to make 2-5mil ISK/hr in hisec or 10-20mil ISK/hr in null?
Compare that to 60-120mil for a level 4 mission BS that can easily make 10-30mil ISK/hr in hi-sec...



where you have 2-5 mil/h value from?

taking veldspar at 13 isk i have 12mil/h

do some homework before posting next time
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-03-21 15:11:53 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Darthewok wrote:
Yes, Hulks are ridiculously overpriced for their profit making potential.
200mil hull cost to make 2-5mil ISK/hr in hisec or 10-20mil ISK/hr in null?
Compare that to 60-120mil for a level 4 mission BS that can easily make 10-30mil ISK/hr in hi-sec...



where you have 2-5 mil/h value from?

taking veldspar at 13 isk i have 12mil/h

do some homework before posting next time


Are the rest of you getting 12mil/h from veldspar mining in empire? I am genuinely curious.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#16 - 2012-03-21 15:12:50 UTC
Stetson Eagle wrote:

The mining bonuses to drones (notably arbitrator?) are useful only for baiting purposes

Not true.
The Vexor and Arbitrator can match the mining capacity of the laser-based mining cruisers quite handily.

Run the numbers yourself and see.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#17 - 2012-03-21 15:27:34 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Darthewok wrote:
Yes, Hulks are ridiculously overpriced for their profit making potential.
200mil hull cost to make 2-5mil ISK/hr in hisec or 10-20mil ISK/hr in null?
Compare that to 60-120mil for a level 4 mission BS that can easily make 10-30mil ISK/hr in hi-sec...



where you have 2-5 mil/h value from?

taking veldspar at 13 isk i have 12mil/h

do some homework before posting next time


Are the rest of you getting 12mil/h from veldspar mining in empire? I am genuinely curious.


ok, how did you calculate your 2-5 mil/h
Egnald Arbosa
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#18 - 2012-03-21 15:37:23 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Darthewok wrote:
Yes, Hulks are ridiculously overpriced for their profit making potential.
200mil hull cost to make 2-5mil ISK/hr in hisec or 10-20mil ISK/hr in null?
Compare that to 60-120mil for a level 4 mission BS that can easily make 10-30mil ISK/hr in hi-sec...



where you have 2-5 mil/h value from?

taking veldspar at 13 isk i have 12mil/h

do some homework before posting next time


Are the rest of you getting 12mil/h from veldspar mining in empire? I am genuinely curious.


I can make 20 mil an hour mining just veldspar at current prices

Hulk+Orca
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-03-21 15:55:35 UTC
nice. so mining may actually be worth it now. it was really poor income for while.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Alua Oresson
Aegis Ascending
Solyaris Chtonium
#20 - 2012-03-21 16:01:10 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Yes, Hulks are ridiculously overpriced for their profit making potential.
200mil hull cost to make 2-5mil ISK/hr in hisec or 10-20mil ISK/hr in null?
Compare that to 60-120mil for a level 4 mission BS that can easily make 10-30mil ISK/hr in hi-sec...


When the hulk was introduced you could make 100+mil/hr in null-sec mining in a battleship. High end ore prices plummeted with the introduction of drone regions. The proposal that is out to make drones have bounties instead of dropping drone poop should buff null sec mining when it comes back out. I'm looking forward to popping hulks in null-sec again.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
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