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Discussion Thread: CSM Statement regarding CCP refocusing

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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#61 - 2011-09-23 19:51:29 UTC
Just to be clear, these are closest to my heart:

Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
* The "little things" and Team Gridlock initiatives should receive additional resources.

* CCP should listen to the wishes of the community, who have repeatedly indicated which issues are most important to them via crowdsourcing.


Also.

Two step wrote:
As I said in the other thread, I think we need old stuff fixed as well as some new content. Those of us with 80+ million SP need some new goals to train for.


I have a fair deal more skill points than that and I still have stuff that I haven't done in EvE yet. You have a long way to go youngling.

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Monger Man
D.S.A.
#62 - 2011-09-23 20:01:19 UTC
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Monger Man wrote:

I hate and take offense to the lazy statement. I'm anything but lazy with dscan. And any time anyone defends the way it works either with you're lazy, or the servers simply cannot handle the traffic is simply defending a system because they are used to the way it works. There must be a way to have the dscan update, keep some skill involved in using it, but remove the horrendous amount of clicking it requires. And don't defend it with "server load", I'm sure the developers can figure something out. They have the overview for gods sake, yes I know thats "on grid". But if you had to press a button to update overview for the last upteen years you'd probably defend that as well with "it takes skillz".


Sorry if it offended you, IMO having a pet peeve about such a feature to the point of not understanding why it's like that and can't be changed into something 'automatic' can only be classified as lazyness.

About comparing overview with dscan you simply can't, overview is done simply spamming your game client with everything on grid, while dscan can't work like that because you have angle and distance as a filter, I would got quite technical in the subject but you don't seem to be educated enough to realise the implications of implementing such a feature server and network wide in order to prevent exploitation in the client side, mind you I'm not trying to insult you or anything, you'll just have to trust me as if it would be a dev telling you this exactly the same way, I just happen to work in the same business and know first hand what implications your little feature request would impact on the whole scheme of things.



Oh really?
Ok we know there are nodes in a cluster. We can postulate that the nodes keep track of objects loaded into there control. They should be keeping track of grids under there control. You shouldn't have to make a database query to get what is in system.
Ask the node for grids and objects in the direction of the scan. The node should only return to the client what is available within that scan, not everything under its control.

Now under that setup, you are doing queries against memory (theoretically possible in sql, but still more overhead) speeding up the query significantly. You should not be able to get any more info than you should because it was not made available to you.

There is no Technical reason that the dscan system cannot be made more efficient, either by removing sql calls and connections from the routine, or some other (and probably numerous since I don't have full knowledge of the systems) routines.

How long it would take to implement is another story. But if you're a good developer you would know that any problem can be solved. Oh wait you probably write C# under windows. I'm sorry, yes then you're stuck with what you have.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2011-09-23 20:29:23 UTC
Gallente pleasure hub is missing from the list. Careless CSM work. I remember this when it is time to vote again *grin*

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Mane Frehm
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#64 - 2011-09-23 20:31:20 UTC
I will make one point...and its the same point I've made for quite some time.

The richness of EVE is not just from the delivery by CCP of exciting/interesting new features that are well done, or from iterating on existing features that need fixes or improvement. It comes from the contributions and creativity of the community, and that only happens when people are motivated to spend time, energy and money in game and out of game.

That motivation has been dying....and while new and/or iterated features for FiS will help, that's not enough. So yes - improve what exists, create new content BUT ensure that you engage your customers as you do so, and explicitly put resources in place to encourage and support those who help bring life to EVE.

Major Stallion
i love you nam
#65 - 2011-09-23 21:15:10 UTC
i do believe the time for action is upon us once again....mass unsubs and jita riots should be the task of the day.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#66 - 2011-09-23 21:28:39 UTC
Does "Iterating on existing content" and "Adding new features only if they iterate on existing content" include finishing WiS and adding establishments, contraband and players in space shooting each other over contraband?

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Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
#67 - 2011-09-23 23:05:16 UTC
For a long time I thought crowdsourcing was the way to go, it gives CCP an idea of where to focus some of their resource with issues highlighted directly from the playerbase rather than seemingly anonymous focus groups. However, the method of crowdsourcing leave it open to metagaming by large alliances/corps. On saying that, they are the ones putting the effort in to making their pet issues a priority. So it would seem, arguably, crowdsourcing works. If you care, use it! Given that there is no real viable alternative then by definition it is the solution we have at the moment.

According to various dev blogs and posts as well as mentions in CSM minutes, CCP also look at their own list of issues and compare/contrast with those on the crowdsourcing lists so there we have a combined approach.

To answer concerns about development of Incarna, now that Incarna is live, some issues surrounding that can also be added to the crowdsourcing lists.

Regardless of the source of the list of issues though, all of this is for nothing if you only have scant resources assigned to it. There are issues from as far back as 2008 if not older which, to a new player looking at it, looks awful.

So while I applaud this effort with cautious optimism, I am also wary we have been here before. I hope that the introspection mentioned in CCP Zulu's Dev Blog results in some action and we see some much needed love, not just being applied to FiS, but to Eve Online as a whole rather than a massive diversion of resource to other projects,which have had their own equally important business imperative. It's a difficult juggling act but the business imperative must now also focus on player retention, attracting new players and welcoming back old ones to ensure CCP can fund the other projects.

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Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-09-23 23:06:30 UTC
Way I see .. I love EVE. Yes there is a lot of broken stuff. But guess what? I don't see or care about half of it. I take the CSM and other loud drums and derive what I will from it.

If you guys think that leaving the game in stasis just to fix some bugs or because your flavor of the moth ship doesn't work the way you want ... I would imagine you have another thing coming. You want a hell of a lot, you want it now, and you want it basically for free. Guess what? Life isn't all internet space ships. If you want to fix things that bad, then apply to CCP.

Let CCP figure out what's best for CCP. If making another MMO and devoting resources to it makes EVE a stronger brand .. then do it. If adding n feature to EVE makes it a more appealing game to its target audience's real life friends ... by all means. Because these are the things CCP has to do to GET the resources to fix the game.

I don't think I know much about the world. I wouldn't claim to either. But when I look at the capital invested solely on hardware... I cringe. Why? Because they literally poor hundreds of thousands of dollars on back-end and servers PER YEAR. Pardon my language but that **** ain't cheap. Plus they are looking into HPC and other hardware solutions to keep up with the demands we put on the nodes.

You want them to fix the code? Last I checked they have been doing so from the ground up for several expansions now. Unless they feel that re-coding the SOL node system in it's entirety is a good thing (last I heard this would take 12 -14 months or more) then that stays. There are many examples .. check the dev blogs. From what some of the suggestion from the community I have read .. some people are asking to make an entire new game. That just doesn't go well.

Shiny new textures? Check
Load balances issues? Getting there.
UI? Almost there.
Lag? 2000 people in one system? 1k on an RFed node with little lag?

Ok fix stuff .. fine. But don't fix what isn't broken. CSM is great, but at this point I think it may eventually be more harm then good. CCP might want to reconsider how they structure it, Too few people with too much power.

Step back and take a breath guys. There has been a lot of **** flung recently. And I think those who rant on the forum and those who have a direct line to CCP need to realize that they have a responsibility to not be complete asses about how they respond to events in EVE. It trickles down to the masses. And as I said before, there was was a lot of pounding on empty drums. Things were sorted, lies and half truths were revealed on both sides.

So yes fix the game. But please don't shoot yourself in the foot because the playerbase gets stagnant or bored.

Quick and cheap access to PVP, be it re-orginizing gate or adding arenas pr whatever. EVE is at its heart an awesome non-"core" game. So why are we striving to be in that core? WoW is dieing because they changed the game so much from the beginning that people are finding other avenues.

Whatever .. I have a feeling this is going to get shut down as a fanboi post or something... there is no point to go on.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#69 - 2011-09-23 23:20:41 UTC
-1 for CSM being idiotic.

The players don't have any idea yet on what CCPs new priorities are. Yet you are asking them to agree with your views that these priorities are ill advised before we have any information to make such a call.

You could have at least waited for this information to become public before starting to stir the pot again.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#70 - 2011-09-23 23:31:00 UTC
Two step wrote:
As I said in the other thread, I think we need old stuff fixed as well as some new content. Those of us with 80+ million SP need some new goals to train for.


THIS!!!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2011-09-24 00:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
I believe that CCP should favor iteration of existing content over new content but not necessarily strongly favor it. New content is what keeps this game fresh and on top of things. Without new content EvE will grow stagnant and new subscribers will dwindle. Yes...please fix the broken stuff. Please further develope and balance current mechanics and content but do not stop introducing new things and new content.

I gave it a +1 anyway.

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Swooshie
USA Canada Private Corp
#72 - 2011-09-24 00:39:57 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
-1 for CSM being idiotic.

The players don't have any idea yet on what CCPs new priorities are. Yet you are asking them to agree with your views that these priorities are ill advised before we have any information to make such a call.

You could have at least waited for this information to become public before starting to stir the pot again.



^ this, times 100

"It is when I think about meaning that I lose what I meant to say."     -Swooshie
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#73 - 2011-09-24 01:52:11 UTC
Monger Man wrote:
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Monger Man wrote:

I hate and take offense to the lazy statement. I'm anything but lazy with dscan. And any time anyone defends the way it works either with you're lazy, or the servers simply cannot handle the traffic is simply defending a system because they are used to the way it works. There must be a way to have the dscan update, keep some skill involved in using it, but remove the horrendous amount of clicking it requires. And don't defend it with "server load", I'm sure the developers can figure something out. They have the overview for gods sake, yes I know thats "on grid". But if you had to press a button to update overview for the last upteen years you'd probably defend that as well with "it takes skillz".


Sorry if it offended you, IMO having a pet peeve about such a feature to the point of not understanding why it's like that and can't be changed into something 'automatic' can only be classified as lazyness.

About comparing overview with dscan you simply can't, overview is done simply spamming your game client with everything on grid, while dscan can't work like that because you have angle and distance as a filter, I would got quite technical in the subject but you don't seem to be educated enough to realise the implications of implementing such a feature server and network wide in order to prevent exploitation in the client side, mind you I'm not trying to insult you or anything, you'll just have to trust me as if it would be a dev telling you this exactly the same way, I just happen to work in the same business and know first hand what implications your little feature request would impact on the whole scheme of things.



Oh really?
Ok we know there are nodes in a cluster. We can postulate that the nodes keep track of objects loaded into there control. They should be keeping track of grids under there control. You shouldn't have to make a database query to get what is in system.
Ask the node for grids and objects in the direction of the scan. The node should only return to the client what is available within that scan, not everything under its control.

Now under that setup, you are doing queries against memory (theoretically possible in sql, but still more overhead) speeding up the query significantly. You should not be able to get any more info than you should because it was not made available to you.

There is no Technical reason that the dscan system cannot be made more efficient, either by removing sql calls and connections from the routine, or some other (and probably numerous since I don't have full knowledge of the systems) routines.

How long it would take to implement is another story. But if you're a good developer you would know that any problem can be solved. Oh wait you probably write C# under windows. I'm sorry, yes then you're stuck with what you have.


(sorry am drunk can't be bothred to reply politically correctly)

You sir are another of the clueless dumasses that has no idea what isdevelopeiing even drunk I can tgell you you're just another of the ones ugnored by the devs because you bable useless crap....
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#74 - 2011-09-24 02:03:59 UTC
I should have put it in here... (from the CSM Statement regarding CCP refocus +1 thread)

Devil's advocate:

The funny thing about this is that if the game fails now.. all of you are just as much to blame as CCP is.
Like driving someone elses car off a cliff?

You guys lose a game. CCP Employees lose their jobs (or maybe just start a new game).

Lets hope you guys know what you're doing... I don't know this for sure but I'm guessing that none of you have experience in making an MMO successful.

I'd rather let CCP keep doing what they believe is best. It is their business after all.

(I guess this refocus is what they believe is best)
Wolfcan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2011-09-24 02:25:11 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:

If I am dumb, your stupidity is legendary. I already agreed to what you said. Development of the game, not the management of CCP.

Those are 2 things that are unambiguously not the same thing. ******* derp.


Um, dude. Management and development are inextricably linked. i.e. If the Management directs the development team away from EVE and onto Dust and WoD, then the Management has stopped the development of the game. So, if we are only allowed to talk about development (according to you), we aren't allowed to talk about the managment practices that negatively effect that devlopement?

Yeah right....
Wolfcan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-09-24 02:33:20 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
-1 for CSM being idiotic.

The players don't have any idea yet on what CCPs new priorities are. Yet you are asking them to agree with your views that these priorities are ill advised before we have any information to make such a call.

You could have at least waited for this information to become public before starting to stir the pot again.


Ah, dude. CSM is privy to vastly more information than the general public. They aren't 'waiting' like we are for the DevBlog. Further, the only type of lobbying CCP seems to understand is massive pressure, forums, media. If you take the pressure off for 1 second CCP will just go back to developing DUST and WoD. This is truly the strangest managed company I have ever come across.
Riggs Droput
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2011-09-24 02:50:08 UTC
I would like to see CCP refocus on their current game before adding in anything new.

Once they fix that come back and start putting in new features but do not do them half ass. Don't release something half done and say we will come back and fix it later. YOU NEVER DO CCP.

Either complete the new feature with testing before releasing it or don't release it at all. We are supposed to be playing a fully finished game and half the time I feel like I'm beta testing your software for you.

Riggs

I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees
Obviously Confidential
#78 - 2011-09-24 04:19:24 UTC
I stopped playing eve about two months ago, find it amusing that with all the crap and the heaps of failure on the part of ccp, they now start paying attention to their own medicrity and call a "defining moment" doing something about it....

Subscriber numbers down, pcu records ages away, mass protests, bugs everywhere, unfinished gameplay, no development resources, emo vampires and sucky fps console garbage....

CCP: you suck so bad these past years that people prefer the chinese server these days, the one without all the failure you added these past expansions.

I suggest toning down the megalomania and just start working on some above average stuff. No need for defining moments, just be competent and not medíocre with delusions of grandeur.

You are not awesome. You suck. Wake up and start working. For your own sake.
Swooshie
USA Canada Private Corp
#79 - 2011-09-24 04:22:22 UTC
Obviously Confidential wrote:
I stopped playing eve about two months ago, find it amusing that with all the crap and the heaps of failure on the part of ccp, they now start paying attention to their own medicrity and call a "defining moment" doing something about it....

Subscriber numbers down, pcu records ages away, mass protests, bugs everywhere, unfinished gameplay, no development resources, emo vampires and sucky fps console garbage....

CCP: you suck so bad these past years that people prefer the chinese server these days, the one without all the failure you added these past expansions.

I suggest toning down the megalomania and just start working on some above average stuff. No need for defining moments, just be competent and not medíocre with delusions of grandeur.

You are not awesome. You suck. Wake up and start working. For your own sake.


What would we do without such insight on these forums?

...

"It is when I think about meaning that I lose what I meant to say."     -Swooshie
Kenshek
Loc-Nar Support Services
#80 - 2011-09-24 04:29:48 UTC
I have an extensive software development background and can tell you that you dont want 100% of development effort to be FIS based products. I'm not privy to the inner sanctums of CCP, but in general they should have 30% of their dev effort in network loading support, 30% new content, 40% fixing the things that are not working well in the overall system. You can cut those 3 high-level subcatagories.

My point is things like Corporate Roles, POS problems, whatever happened to the evolvement of the old Cosmos missions, why has the old research agents not evolved? I could go on and on about existing content that has flattened out or is outright broken.

My experiance has taught me to look at what your clients are doing with your software. Then when you see they stopped using that portion, find out why. We in general dont have the big picture data of what areas are being used in eve, but CCP does. How many player hours are going to what areas of eve? Tthen if you see a general player drop off in an area find out why and then determine if the content should be allowed to go flat or improved.

I do concur that space needs to be expanded again dramatically all of eve space is getting pretty dense.

-Ken