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Dear CCP , regarding: web "exploit".
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Hauling Hal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-03-20 22:21:59 UTC
My take on this is that the bug is:

"You can't cancel warp"

The fact that normal game mechanics cause it, it irrelevant, it is a bug and it is being exploited. When it's fixed, you can warp freighters at stations to your hearts content.

Nuff said.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#142 - 2012-03-20 22:23:29 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
I'm sorry, but if this is NOT new game behaviour and people have been petitioning this for years, and yet suddenly it's an exploit because it cost a Goon a bucket of ISK, isn't this something that the Internal Affairs department should look at?

Also, Liang, please stop enabling Tippia. She's just running point guard for the Goons like she always does, and her "pulling a Tippia" is just a way to make this about her instead of what it should be, which is paying customers questioning why these decisions always go in favour of the Goons.

It's always just been good sport before, but now it's really starting to bother me.


goonswarm online whatup

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
#143 - 2012-03-20 22:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Shobon Welp
1) The function of a stasis webifier is to slow down a target ship.

2) The function of a stasis webifier is NOT to double up as a warp scrambler and prevent a ship from warping.

3) If a stasis webifier is preventing a ship from warping, and preventing the pilot of the target ship from cancelling their warp, that is an unintended effect. A bug, if you will.

4) If certain individuals are deliberately recreating the circumstances where that bug occurs, then that is an exploit.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2012-03-20 22:28:45 UTC
Andski wrote:


goonswarm online whatup


To be fair over the past 5 months Goonswarm has transformed itself into the biggest crybabies in game. The second something doesn't go their way, 7000 members take to the petitions and forums to ~right the wrongs of eveonline~.


Of course if you're asked to police your own people for botting, that's a crusade too far~

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Shobon Welp
GoonFleet
Band of Brothers
#145 - 2012-03-20 22:29:54 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Andski wrote:


goonswarm online whatup


To be fair over the past 5 months Goonswarm has transformed itself into the biggest crybabies in game. The second something doesn't go their way, 7000 members take to the petitions and forums to ~right the wrongs of eveonline~.


Of course if you're asked to police your own people for botting, that's a crusade too far~


so tremendously bitter and angry
Astro Semite
Productive Procrastination
#146 - 2012-03-20 22:32:21 UTC
Hauling Hal wrote:
My take on this is that the bug is:

"You can't cancel warp"

The fact that normal game mechanics cause it, it irrelevant, it is a bug and it is being exploited. When it's fixed, you can warp freighters at stations to your hearts content.

Nuff said.


You're not supposed to be able to cancel warp ocne your speed is high enough. That's why CCP made it so you can't. It's how the game was designed, players simply took advantage of this, as they do all other quirks of the game mechanics.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#147 - 2012-03-20 22:33:14 UTC
This bug has been fixed on internal servers and is awaiting testing and QA. -CCP Explorer

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#148 - 2012-03-20 22:34:07 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
IAlso, Liang, please stop enabling Tippia. She's just running point guard for the Goons like she always does, and her "pulling a Tippia" is just a way to make this about her instead of what it should be, which is paying customers questioning why these decisions always go in favour of the Goons.
Wow. Lol
I think someone has pulled a switch on you and given you a tungsten hat instead — it will have the exact opposite effect. It was probably some goon.

A few things:
Just because the goons happen to want to play (roughly) the same game as I do doesn't mean I'm “running point guard” for them. I would be far more in agreement with Mittens' policies if that were the case. What you're seeing is just me thinking it's silly that the goons are the a priori root of all evil, even when they have nothing to do with what's happening (granted, their willingness to take responsibility for anything that riles people up doesn't exactly help).

It's not about me — it's about people being upset about an obvious exploit being labelled as such. How this suddenly turned into yet another goon thread (long after I joined the thread) when it was originally about a bug being properly identified as such is quite beyond me… Ugh

…but even so, if you actually want a bit of deflection of the topic: are you sure that's the actual issue? Shouldn't it rather be the apparent ignorance of the GMs (and/or QA) about game mechanics and well-known issues and how this causes them to flip-flop like this before finally understanding the problem people are asking about? Yes, if you do think that an undue of GM action is going the goons' way, that's probably something IA should look at, but wouldn't that rather be a larger issue than what's being discussed here?

Also, it's “he”.


Liang: fair enough, but you still have to agree that it's not even remotely plausible as an intended mechanic that it locks up ships and that using this unintentional behaviour to lock down ships is very obviously the exploitation of a bug. Until they put in the required code to handle the exceptional situation (and again: I'll willingly and fully throw my weight behind any kind of “wtf, why didn't you fix it sooner” movement), just bring a Lachesis along — they need to get out more often anyway. P
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#149 - 2012-03-20 22:34:25 UTC
/tinfoil hat on

Anyone else find it strange that shortly after the "dec shielding" reversal, supposedly done to lessen the burden on GMs, something allowed for a long time is deemed an exploit all of the sudden?

/tinfoil hat off
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2012-03-20 22:39:56 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Andski wrote:


goonswarm online whatup


To be fair over the past 5 months Goonswarm has transformed itself into the biggest crybabies in game. The second something doesn't go their way, 7000 members take to the petitions and forums to ~right the wrongs of eveonline~.


Of course if you're asked to police your own people for botting, that's a crusade too far~


Hey Grath...we aren't the ones crying about Titans being balanced or exploits being fixed.

I feel bad for PL, though. It ain't easy being ~elite PvP~ these days.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#151 - 2012-03-20 22:42:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Liang: fair enough, but you still have to agree that it's not even remotely plausible as an intended mechanic that it locks up ships and that using this unintentional behaviour to lock down ships is very obviously the exploitation of a bug. Until they put in the required code to handle the exceptional situation (and again: I'll willingly and fully throw my weight behind any kind of “wtf, why didn't you fix it sooner” movement), just bring a Lachesis along — they need to get out more often anyway. P


So you do think that using a Rapier is an exploit. Wow. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#152 - 2012-03-20 23:19:07 UTC
Astro Semite wrote:
Claiming CCP didn't know exactly what was going on is goddamn retarted, it's been explained to them in detail over and over again by people frustrated over losing their ships to faction police, by people wanting to make sure their tactics are legit and it's something every good PvP'er knows how to use to his advantage.
It's not retarded — it's just a sad indictment of the unfamiliarity CCP has with their own game. It is an obvious exploit, since what's happening is so far outside the realm of what webs are meant to do that it's downright ridiculous, but just because they've been dafter than a bale of hay in the past doesn't mean CCP shouldn't fix this bug and remove the exploit.

Fundamentally, the issue is this: you're coming from the perspective of “it was ok yesterday, it should be ok today”. I'm coming from the perspective “it was ok yesterday, someone needs to check on the old GMs so they don't accidentally drown in the shower while standing up, which is a real risk if they're really that stupid”.

Quote:
Up until yesterday it was a well known game mechanic no one had any issues with. CCP said that's how it's supposed to work, and players adapted to their rules. if they feel it needs to be changed then fine, they can change it so you'll allways be able ot cancell warp no matter what. But call it what it is; a change in game mechanics. The warp mechanics might be poorly designed, but this doesn't mean taking advantage of this is cheating; it's knowing how the game works and using that to your advantage.
Well, no. That's kind of what an exploit is: taking advantage of flaws in the code that makes it behave in ways it's not meant to behave. Webs are meant to slow you down; they're not meant to make your control over the ship to take a leave of absence. It's not a change in game mechanics — it's a very belated bugfix.

Liang Nuren wrote:
So you do think that using a Rapier is an exploit. Wow. Roll
So you can't read. Wow. Roll

No. I (and CCP) think that ships becoming unresponsive when webbed is a bug and that taking advantage of this bug is an exploit. Now stop playing stupid.
Cornad
#153 - 2012-03-20 23:27:52 UTC
not trying to enter into any of the running arguments concerning this "exploit" but i am wondering...

it is now considered a punishable exploit to web a ship as it undocks if it initiates warp?

this seems very strange to me and maybe i am understanding wrong?

english is not my first language so i apologize for any misunderstanding
Zowie Powers
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2012-03-20 23:33:54 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
isn't this something that the Internal Affairs department should look at?


AHA. You're kinda cute.

Yeah.....

Internal Affairs.....


ah haaa haha ha ha

I also remember that piece of lip service.

Ah haa hah aha ha aha
I didn't think I'd ever see them refered to ever again though....

ha ha ah

oh boy.... internal affairs.... yeah, and the CSM are the driving force behind eve development too...

ah ha ha ha ha

ATX: The best of the rest.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#155 - 2012-03-20 23:46:39 UTC
Honeyhole wrote:
The ship must be at speed (like on undock) and unaligned before hitting warp. Hitting warp in this state will force an obscene length of time aligning and speeding up while 'warping'. If a player applies webs to the target, adjusting it's max-speed in relation to the web bonus and then bump the ship to a speed greater than its max speed, the ship will be stuck effectively trying to slow-down in order to warp.

Again, this is nothing new. It can happen to ANY ship in almost ANY circumstance and it has been petitioned many, many times over the years. I believe it last happened to me after I was webbed by a rapier in a vagabond after I had initiated warp where my inertia upon getting webbed carried my current speed much faster than my max-speed after getting webbed. I was stuck in warp and promptly died. Rapier pilot exploits, I guess?


Oh that's a classic.. damn annoying when you clearly would've been 'safe' and still dies to this.

JF's initiating warp when there's a hostile on station deserves to die tho. P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#156 - 2012-03-20 23:48:13 UTC
webs preventing from warp, dock and everything else which isnt working in warp, is indeed an exploit and should be handled as such.
Props CCP.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#157 - 2012-03-21 00:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanth
Dez Affinity wrote:
It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping.


Ignoring the bullshit about what's exploiting or not:
It's quite interesting if you're right about this being an effect of the innate behaviour of speed vs warp initiation. The changes to pulse mwd made some sense. But if the current mechanic has an impact on what causes this web issue as well, then CCP's fix/new warp behaviour might need to be altered again.

It's quite amusing how alot of bugs exist in this game, gets reported repeatedly, sometimes for years, and then randomly CCP state it as an exploit and/or fixes it. Some of them are minor, others quite big effects (how long was POS bowling an acceptable tactic, until CCP changed their mind and it was suddenly bannable offense? how long time were we allowed to run from CONCORD before it suddenly became bannable?).

Other times it's depending on what GM you talk to. One day I talk to GM A who claims it's an exploit when two guys put 15-20 cans in two bubbles on a gate. Little bit later I talk to GM B who claims it's fine that Alliance X put up sixty anchored GSC in a net of 15-20 bubbles.

This is exactly why it's ridicilous that it's a bannable offense. As long as CCP isn't consistent in their decision making, players will be confused and we'll not know what is ok or not. The simple solution is to only let 'gamebreaking bugs' be a bannable offense. I.e. stuff on a grand scale. The moon goo duping for example. Smaller mechanics that still has counters (you could scout that JF, and individual pilot losses while annoying, is still not affected EVE on a grand scale), combined with irrational and changeable GM decisions should never be a bannable offense.

Honeyhole wrote:
Any players using the mechanic before an announcement about it being deemed an exploit are easily protected from action against them because many, many petitions and chat logs between GM's and players over the years can be revived for more than enough proof the show that CCP simply did not take the petitions seriously. That is until a 20 billion isk JF was lost due to it :tinfoil:


That, pretty much, is the effect of what I just posted above. It's damn hard for players to try to play around dodgy gamemechanics when CCP alters what is legal or not, especially weird when GM A and GM B can judge different.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Ascendic
Polaris Syndicate
#158 - 2012-03-21 01:34:50 UTC
Mr Blue wrote:
all you gotto do as a Pathetic Legion pilot is to form up proper subcap fleets for 'gudfights' ...its not really magic.
Tho :effort:?


See what I did thar?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-03-21 01:49:17 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Of course if you're asked to police your own people for botting, that's a crusade too far~


PL is known for their firm stance against botting

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2012-03-21 02:05:57 UTC
simple solution seems to be ability to cancel warp no matter what your doing? it seems the issue is once webbed and bumped you cannot cancel the warp to redock or move in general. this happened to me the first week i played, i had a bestower, undocked in jita, got bumped and couldn't cancel warp for like 10 minutes, no cargo so wasn't killed but to a noob it is scary.