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Dear CCP , regarding: web "exploit".
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Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#61 - 2012-03-20 16:48:56 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
It is not a bug, and it is not an exploit. The GM simply did not understand game mechanics well enough to comment.

-Liang


Sorry Liang, a criminal doesn't get to decide when he's broken the law. (Not that I equate PvPers with criminals, but the analogy fits.)

It's an exploit because CCP says it's an exploit, nothing more.

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-03-20 16:51:32 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Not sure why the OP compares this situation with bumping and regular webbing. It's clearly a different matter, as bumping was for the longest time (and is), a viable mechanic to stop people from warping. Webbing people has always been a way to help them warp faster. Both above have counters; while this new issue at hand is a glitch in a mechanic that function like a warp scrambler, even tho it's a web.

I think it's harsh by CCP to make it a bannable offense tho, it's clearly an existing mechanic that doesn't work as it should, but as it's a) obvious what happens and b) not very hard to counter (scout before undock), it just create unecessary fuss to try to purge people using it at present.

Should it be fixed/removed? Yeah, it's clear it's not intended. Bannable offense? No, that's tad excessive.


Webbing has also long been a way to make people take longer to get into warp. Its very noticeable when you fly something like a Vaga or nano Ishtar and you get hammered by the old 90% webs. You simply don't warp anytime soon. Furthermore, webbing people to keep them out of the undock radius of the station is a critical part of game mechanics.

The way things stand, they've declared webbing people (under any circumstances) an exploit.

-Liang


Usually you use webbing to let a freighter insta-warp when jumped through a gate. It looks like the undock mechanics with webs will cause this exploit.
Prince Kobol
#63 - 2012-03-20 16:52:35 UTC
The most important question is why has something which has been declared as a valid tactic for years (According to some) now deemed to be an exploit?
gfldex
#64 - 2012-03-20 16:52:53 UTC
Mr Blue wrote:
Dear CCP, this game mechanic have existed for years. the first supercarriers was killed in low sec due to bumping (so they couldnt warp)


That is not the bug. The problem comes form some "optimisations" introduced a long long time ago. The code is assuming that a ship that has a higher current speed then the maximum speed of the ship class got it's warp drive active.

A webber is lowering the maximum speed of the ship. If you got speed when webs are applied your ship enters a undefined state. You are in warp while your warp drive is not active. As a result you get something really odd. You can't cancel warp because your warp drive is not active (yet) but you can't navigate because you are in warp.

This bug is there for years indeed but never became a problem because stations didn't use to kick you out.

Funnily, kicking stations where meant to be an optimisation to reduce the amount of bumping (and as such collision control at server side), is working in conjunction with a very old bug to create a deathtrap for anybody who does not have an insta undock.

This was petitioned before many many times and I think it's time for the GM team to apologize to all who where told to go and *beep* themselves. If you lost a ship in this way I strongly encourage you to reopen the petition in question. There is still hope that GMs have brains but are simply not allowed to use them.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
gfldex
#65 - 2012-03-20 16:55:08 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
The most important question is why has something which has been declared as a valid tactic for years (According to some) now deemed to be an exploit?


I would guess that somebody filed a bug report with the right wording.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Nirnias Stirrum
UberWTFBBQ and Battle Technologies
#66 - 2012-03-20 17:00:50 UTC
seany1212 wrote:
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:
Wait so let me get this straight and see if im reading it correctly... Webbing a freighter/cap ship in order for it to get into warp faster is an exploit now? since when? this is commenly used by everyone.

Also does that mean frag warping (cloaking, then uncloaking and instawarping) is an exploit also?


No, what happens is a station kicks out a freighter/JF faster than the speed the freighter is able to naturally fly at, aggressor then webs said freighter/JF so much that due to the ships terrible inertia takes a ******** amount of time to decelerate from the over speed and align to warp while being unable to stop warp or dock.

From what I gather anyway... Lol



Ohhhh that makes way more sense... wish the OP was as clear as this.
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#67 - 2012-03-20 17:04:32 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Xpaulusx wrote:
your Vindi's.......... give them too me.


I'll buy your Vindi's for 1 trit Lol


Also your immobility Drivers as well, can i haz?

......................................................
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#68 - 2012-03-20 17:14:08 UTC
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:

Ohhhh that makes way more sense... wish the OP was as clear as this.


The problem has never been limited to JFs, and as things stand CCP has effectively outlawed webbing (especially on a station). ******* ******** way to handle this. The "problem" has been in game for so long that the best course of action is to fix the part where it prevents you from taking further action (including canceling warp) before you enter warp.

But declaring something that's a well known part of the game an "exploit"? No, that's pretty ... bad.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
gfldex
#69 - 2012-03-20 17:19:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
and as things stand CCP has effectively outlawed webbing (especially on a station).


No they don't. They have banned webbing before scrambling at stations.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-03-20 17:21:23 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
This is just ccp dumbing eve down another tiny notch.


Rather dumb people using that phrase all to often with little incite or thought process all their own.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-03-20 17:23:39 UTC
So we're not allowed to web people now?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-03-20 17:25:19 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
So we're not allowed to web people now?


Not unless you warp scramble them as well.
Nergart
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#73 - 2012-03-20 17:26:14 UTC
I found out about this bug a couple of months ago when it happened to a friends carrier (got replaced btw)

sounds like a massive issue really. looking through the jump freighter kills there are very few that do not have a 90% webbing ship on the mail (vindicator/vigilant and so on)

perhaps changing the warp and docking mechanics to allow a ship to dock while its warping would resolve this issue. (just a thaught)

the worst part is I guess, that this exploit is also used by the navy.
having been a pirate in the past, ive had the navy web me off gates and off stations before they point me, this stops a player from docking until they are warp disrupted by the navy. up until today I thought that was how the navy was designed to work.

sounds like this exploit has been in game a very long time and fixing it will require a look at more than just 1 aspect of this.

I agree that this issue is not limited to just jump freighters but potentially any ship

Eve does not have a learning curve, its a learning cliff. Either learn to fly on the way down or its going to be a hard landing
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#74 - 2012-03-20 17:30:34 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
and as things stand CCP has effectively outlawed webbing (especially on a station).


No they don't. They have banned webbing before scrambling at stations.


The text of the news item was updated to be much more specific (at my request). It is much better now than the original banning of ban on "webs that prevent warping".

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#75 - 2012-03-20 17:32:50 UTC
I'm thinkin the subject can be solved by making the exit station speed dependant on the exiting vehicle speed rather than a random number.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#76 - 2012-03-20 17:33:07 UTC
Dez Affinity wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
So we're not allowed to web people now?


Not unless you warp scramble them as well.


Actually, the text of the new news item is much superior:
news item wrote:

We've become aware of an exploit that is being abused by players to catch jump freighters in low-sec in order to kill them. By webbing a ship that has initiated warp, the victim will be rendered unable to cancel the warp in order to dock. This is a clear exploit and anyone found abusing this will be dealt with accordingly. Exploiting may result in a permanent suspension from the game. A fix will be deployed for this issue in the near future.


This is superior to the older:
old news item wrote:

It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them. This is a clear exploit and anyone found abusing this will be dealt with accordingly. Exploiting may result in a permanent suspension from the game. A fix will be deployed for this issue in the near future.


The first outlaws webbing (and not scramming) freighters/JFs on a station that have clicked warp. The second outlaws webs.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-03-20 17:47:06 UTC
Honeyhole wrote:
It's not an exploit.

And it's even more sad that it took the cries of a thousand carebears and casual power-bloc players for you to say you're going to do something about it.


Funny that, but it is the crying of Butthurt Oopsindividuals that change things.

In this case, its not carebears. Look at titan guns...only thing different is the tracking, range, and damage mods compared to a frigate gun. For all intents and purposes, they work exactly the same using the same rule sets CCP set down when they coded turrets. So its pretty clever to give up massive amounts of tank for those tracking mods to punt sub cap ships that were also webbed by ally ships to just make those cruisers and battlecruisers into a fish in the barrel while you were holding a hand grenade.

But silly CCP - "We're not happy with the effectiveness of large groups of titans against subcapital ships" - since the Titan was origionally a fleet buster with the AoE doomsday, then doomsday gets nerfed to single target, then nerfed again with removal of drones and hitpoints while limiting to cap ships only, then the titan guns get nerfed. CCP doesn't have a clue what to do with a titan, but players have a clue how to use it and use it well until the roar of the ButthurtOops horde calls for that monstrosity to be burned at the stake since their little subcrap ship can't take the hit of a titan gun - newsflash its because you don't have a clue your ship sucks ass and you should be in a cap ship to take a hit from a capship.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-03-20 17:57:12 UTC
if webs can produce a scram affect, then what the heck did ccp balls up to make scrams not work sometimes?

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
#79 - 2012-03-20 17:59:02 UTC
It seems to me the issue is that when the freighter gets webbed when its in warp, it doesn't not have the ability to cancel warp, and therefore it cannot dock.
Steve Celeste
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-03-20 18:07:33 UTC
Mr Blue wrote:
broken game

That's the problem, not the players.