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Rant Over, All 4 racial BC 5 to replace current BC 5
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OfBalance
Caldari State
#121 - 2012-03-20 06:29:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Magnus Orin wrote:
Is having generic BC and Destroyer skills really that much of a problem that they are going all these lengths to 'fix' it?
Yes. BCs in particular unlock an ungodly amount of ships, a large portion of which sit in the “most popular” category. Fixing that isn't really “going to this length” because it's a very simple and easy fix. The issue is rather with the weird upset it has caused…

…but much of that is obviously due to people not reading up on what they're going to do and (still, weeks later) getting upset with something they've explicitly say isn't going to happen. A few others think it's unfair that some players will get much more expensive clones, and that at least shows they've understood what's happening, but the complaint is still odd.


Ostensibly they're rebalancing everything such that being further removed from the life-line that is the current battlecruiser class will make sense, yes.

However; since we've seen a mere wisp of actual ship changes aside from the hybrid buff and the few related ship tweaks therein, I think it's completely fair for the populace to wonder why the skill progression paradigm shift comes first. It would make a whole lot more sense and be much less alarming if the t1 frig/dessie/cruiser lineup were in a better place.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#122 - 2012-03-20 06:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Tippia wrote:
Magnus Orin wrote:
Is having generic BC and Destroyer skills really that much of a problem that they are going all these lengths to 'fix' it?
Yes. BCs in particular unlock an ungodly amount of ships, a large portion of which sit in the “most popular” category. Fixing that isn't really “going to this length” because it's a very simple and easy fix. The issue is rather with the weird upset it has caused…

…but much of that is obviously due to people not reading up on what they're going to do and (still, weeks later) getting upset with something they've explicitly say isn't going to happen. A few others think it's unfair that some players will get much more expensive clones, and that at least shows they've understood what's happening, but the complaint is still odd.


I just hope that when they say reimbursement they mean those of us with BC5 simply get each racial BC at 5 once implemented.

AND NOT that they give us the skillpoints needed to do that and an option to spend it on other stuff.. Because that simply wouldn't be fair.

And I have bc5 so I would be in that category.. But still can completely understand why that would upset people.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#123 - 2012-03-20 06:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
OfBalance wrote:
However; since we've seen a mere wisp of actual ship changes aside from the hybrid buff and the few related ship tweaks therein, I think it's completely fair for the populace to wonder why the skill progression paradigm shift comes first. It would make a whole lot more sense and be much less alarming if the t1 frig/dessie/cruiser lineup were in a better place.

Because it's a decision between having it be a bit worse before it gets a lot better or having it get better before it gets a lot worse.

The reason they're doing this is not just to “prettify” the skill tree, but also to allow the skills themselves to be better balanced in terms of what they offer and build a better platform upon which to balance the ships — the latter needs to happen before new ships are released and before it's meaningful to do a balance pass on the ships that exist (since the point of this change is to set up for a balance pass anyway — doing it before just means doing it twice, with the first being a bit of wasted effort).

Doing this change after would just make it feel like a much bigger nerf because these newly balanced ships that people have had a reawakened interest in will suddenly become more expensive / slower to train / whathaveyou. Just in terms of pure whinger psychology, it's better to do this first and then leave on the upbeat note of a balance pass than doing it the other way around.

JC Anderson wrote:
I just hope that when they say reimbursement they mean those of us with BC5 simply get each racial BC at 5 once implemented.
That's pretty much exactly what they've said.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#124 - 2012-03-20 06:50:33 UTC
I think that the most important thing I found out from this thread is that many people suck at reading, or are just lazy drama queens. I feel bad for CCP, explaining the proposed change must seem like talking to a bunch of parrots who repeat the same exclamation over and over again and don't actually understand what they are being told.

Every time an EVE player thinks themselves smarter than other MMO players because they think that people who play EVE are smarter by default, think of this thread and reconsider.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#125 - 2012-03-20 06:50:55 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Tippia wrote:


JC Anderson wrote:
I just hope that when they say reimbursement they mean those of us with BC5 simply get each racial BC at 5 once implemented.
That's pretty much exactly what they've said.


If that's the case then I wouldn't have any issues.

I think the fact that they used the word reimbursement in the addendum, which made me wonder if they were simply going to give us a pool of SP as they have with prior reimbursements.

It wouldn't be fair to the other players if the fact that I have bc 5 suddenly means I had a pool of SP to spend wherever I wanted and didn't even bother putting it back into each races BC skill.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-03-20 07:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Tippia wrote:

Because it's a decision between having it be a bit worse before it gets a lot better or having it get better before it gets a lot worse.

The reason they're doing this is not just to “prettify” the skill tree, but also to allow the skills themselves to be better balanced in terms of what they offer and build a better platform upon which to balance the ships — the latter needs to happen before new ships are released and before it's meaningful to do a balance pass on the ships that exist (since the point of this change is to set up for a balance pass anyway — doing it before just means doing it twice, with the first being a bit of wasted effort).

Doing this change after would just make it feel like a much bigger nerf because these newly balanced ships that people have had a reawakened interest in will suddenly become more expensive / slower to train / whathaveyou. Just in terms of pure whinger psychology, it's better to do this first and then leave on the upbeat note of a balance pass than doing it the other way around.


On the contrary, balancing ships and tiericide first leaves them time fully flesh that out before they go locking new players into an extended limbo getting to what are now easily accessed generically useful ships (bc).

It's not about faux-psycology, it's about the obvious fact that it's going to take far more time to examine, categorize, adjust, and fix all these ships than it will to change the shape of skill progress which is simply a matter of coding.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#127 - 2012-03-20 07:58:42 UTC
i think the only fair way way to handle this problem is to keep BC and dessy skills unracial because either way you are going to hurt someone:
if they give BC5 to all the racial skills they benefit the player with more SP (and it would be good for one time to see CCP give some love to the older player) but the people w/o the skill will spend 3 months of extra training to reach the same level.
if they just reimburse the skill and SP there will be alot of crying from all the people that already fly more than one race because they wont be able to fly all the ships they already do.

anyway they gave alot of time now to all the people w/o the skills at 5 to change their skill plan a little and get those free sp (even if you are on a bad remap it will still be faster than skill 3 more skills at 5)
Signal11th
#128 - 2012-03-20 08:39:48 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
SKILLS:

  • Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.

    • Bah... couldn't care less.

    They should just delete the removed skills and reimburse the skillpoints and skillbooks from those.
    After that people can spend the point to what ever they like. Obviously it is impossible to fly all faction BC's with the amount of points reimbursed, but that will be absolutely same for everyone. If you had trained some skill to 5, you get more skillpoints back than player who had trained some skill only to 4 ... and yes - you can put all those skillpoints even to mining upgrades skill if u please to do so.

    Life is choices - this is an easy one.

    If they give more skill points to player A than player B - there is much greater problem and much more whining coming.



    Well it's not like they haven't been given enough warning to errr maybe train that skill to 5 before the change happens?

    God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
    Sasha Azala
    Doomheim
    #129 - 2012-03-20 09:02:54 UTC
    Signal11th wrote:
    Grey Stormshadow wrote:
    IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    SKILLS:

  • Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.

    • Bah... couldn't care less.

    They should just delete the removed skills and reimburse the skillpoints and skillbooks from those.
    After that people can spend the point to what ever they like. Obviously it is impossible to fly all faction BC's with the amount of points reimbursed, but that will be absolutely same for everyone. If you had trained some skill to 5, you get more skillpoints back than player who had trained some skill only to 4 ... and yes - you can put all those skillpoints even to mining upgrades skill if u please to do so.

    Life is choices - this is an easy one.

    If they give more skill points to player A than player B - there is much greater problem and much more whining coming.



    Well it's not like they haven't been given enough warning to errr maybe train that skill to 5 before the change happens?



    There's been warning, but no proper warning unless there's been one in the last 4 days.

    Has there been a date set for the change?

    Has the change been finalised to how they will implement the change?


    If it was me organising such a change, I'd give 2 months notice and not base it on what you could fly, but base it on just the destroyer and battlecruiser skills that way if you wanted to learn those skills you would have time to train them before the change.

    Or just reimburse the sp and make destroyers rank 1 and battlecruisers rank 2, but this might not fit in with their future plans as they would not be inline with the other skills ranks.
    Admiral Thelaro
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #130 - 2012-03-20 09:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Admiral Thelaro
    There are only two "fair" ways (in my eyes) to handle this.

    1) Simply refund the SP, to be reallocated by players whom had the skill trained or ....

    2) Give everyone (new accounts included) 4.5M+ SPs. (Whatever BC V & Dessy V x 4 is)

    Given option 1, _everyone_ is at the same disadvantage.
    Given option 2, _everyone_ is at the same advantage.

    Edit:

    Personally, I'd pick option 1 even if it means taking a hit.
    Sasha Azala
    Doomheim
    #131 - 2012-03-20 10:02:12 UTC
    Admiral Thelaro wrote:
    There are only two "fair" ways (in my eyes) to handle this.

    1) Simply refund the SP, to be reallocated by players whom had the skill trained or ....

    2) Give everyone (new accounts included) 4.5M+ SPs. (Whatever BC V & Dessy V x 4 is)

    Given option 1, _everyone_ is at the same disadvantage.
    Given option 2, _everyone_ is at the same advantage.

    Edit:

    Personally, I'd pick option 1 even if it means taking a hit.




    Option 1, won't happen as they've already said if you could fly something before you will still be able to fly it.

    Option 2, most people like free sp but then it would be just a sweetener if that sp can be used on any skill and it would have to be because if it wasn't, it would still be unfair to some players. I don't think free sp is the way to go.
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #132 - 2012-03-20 10:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
    Sasha Azala wrote:
    Admiral Thelaro wrote:
    There are only two "fair" ways (in my eyes) to handle this.

    1) Simply refund the SP, to be reallocated by players whom had the skill trained or ....

    2) Give everyone (new accounts included) 4.5M+ SPs. (Whatever BC V & Dessy V x 4 is)

    Given option 1, _everyone_ is at the same disadvantage.
    Given option 2, _everyone_ is at the same advantage.
    Option 1, won't happen as they've already said if you could fly something before you will still be able to fly it.

    Option 2, most people like free sp but then it would be just a sweetener if that sp can be used on any skill and it would have to be because if it wasn't, it would still be unfair to some players. I don't think free sp is the way to go.
    …and option 3 is probably what they're going for anyway:

    3) Give everyone the skills to make the change not affect them compared to where they were before the change — people who have more ships trained suddenly (potentially) get a more expensive clone.

    “Fairness” is so hideously subjective that they're going with the minimalist “zero impact” solution instead. As little as possible will change. Those who “benefit” from it will be the only ones actually seeing any impact by getting that increase in clone cost. Will this make cruisers and above a bit more expensive for those who haven't gotten there quite yet? Sure, but there is no impact on their ability from the day before to the day after the change, and they're also given the benefit of cheaper T2 and that slight reduction in capships (should they want to go that far) that some seem to think is the end of the world…
    Michelle Mironne
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #133 - 2012-03-20 11:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Michelle Mironne
    Every race as a specific bonus and every kind of ships have a specific bonus ( tier 1 and 2 BC have tank, tier 3 have dps )

    make every bc able to get bonus from XXrace cruiser's skill for the race specific bonus and the specific ship's bonus from the actual generic BC skill

    This way you have more options of skills and prefering racial cruiser to boost particular bonuses over a generic skill

    Command ships still requesting both ( racial and generic ) skill to lvl 5

    Same work for navy destroiers and same requirement for interdictors
    Ceptia Cyna
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #134 - 2012-03-25 00:55:09 UTC
    Tippia wrote:
    Kiran wrote:
    At present I can fly Minmatar and Gallentte BC's and soon the Gall Command ships. With the new racial skills being put in will it mean I will have to retrain them (Gallentte race) or do I get skillpoints added for the skills I dont have after the patch ?
    As they have said over and over (and over) again in the blog and comment thread: if you can fly it before the patch, you can fly it after.


    Everybody gets Racial BC I instead of BC V.

    You can still fly it then. *TROLLFACE* :D