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Customer Support lifting previous restrictions regarding war decs

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ShipToaster
#581 - 2012-02-24 17:13:56 UTC
Saw the first WoW player saying gb2eve today. Sad times.

.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#582 - 2012-02-26 02:32:47 UTC
Raneru wrote:
Sounds like a rule being changed due to changes/additions/whatever to wardecs in the upcoming expansion.



Look again at the date of the OP. This was changed back in October (so the upcoming expansion at the time of the announcement would have been Crucible), and it was changed due to either:
1) E-UNI's secret use of techniques that had never been publicly announced as legal,
2) Customer Service decided that they no longer had the manpower to enforce the rules, or
3) Customer Service (not a game development department) decided that the game was best served by reversing longstanding exploit rulings.


I have my own suspicions on which is most likely, but none are good reasons.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vangococo
The Whiskey Rebellion
Mildy Unprofessional
#583 - 2012-03-15 23:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vangococo
So CCP will ignore all request to perma ban Bot miners / Bot Ratters in nullsec. Bot Miners in Highsec. And when corps tired of the Bots in highsec wardeck a Bot miner. the Bot miner corp can use this (Previously noted Exploit punishiable by Bans). And go back to Bot mining with toons ruin the Game economy. and make it Harder for actual Person at the Keyboards to support their Accounts.

Am i getting this all right.. Okay so where do i get one of those free ( obviously okay to use in 3-4 years like everyother exploit in game) Bot programs so when they legalize or say hey its okay bro you can use the bot. Mineing takes no real skills and you can just log on in ( enter random Asteroid belt of choice) and have the bot collect mins for 23 hours a day.


Everything Old is new Again? Exploits ignored by the devs for years can finally be fixed by saying we just give up cause we dont have the ability to fix the Darn Problem..
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#584 - 2012-03-16 10:28:57 UTC
Well this is ******* stupid....

We are at war with this corporation atm, ****** little 7 man corp that just camps jita 4-4 all day.

The CEO has several other 1 man corps with alts that are at war with other big alliances/corps.

He flies around in one corp to find WT's but if he finds another WT from another corp he just changes corps in system/ahead of route and waits for them with his 2-3 remote sensor boosting bassy's/guardians.

Are you basically saying....this is allowed?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#585 - 2012-03-16 10:32:51 UTC
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Well this is ******* stupid....

We are at war with this corporation atm, ****** little 7 man corp that just camps jita 4-4 all day.

The CEO has several other 1 man corps with alts that are at war with other big alliances/corps.

He flies around in one corp to find WT's but if he finds another WT from another corp he just changes corps in system/ahead of route and waits for them with his 2-3 remote sensor boosting bassy's/guardians.

Are you basically saying....this is allowed?


This is what happens when you implement hi sec wardecs.

They should just have forbidden all kinds of wardecs or made everyone be able to shoot everyone everywhere. The latter would find little support off hi seccers though.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
gfldex
#586 - 2012-03-16 12:20:05 UTC
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Are you basically saying....this is allowed?


As long as they don't change corp when war targets are already in system it's fine.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#587 - 2012-03-16 13:59:56 UTC
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Well this is ******* stupid....

We are at war with this corporation atm, ****** little 7 man corp that just camps jita 4-4 all day.

The CEO has several other 1 man corps with alts that are at war with other big alliances/corps.

He flies around in one corp to find WT's but if he finds another WT from another corp he just changes corps in system/ahead of route and waits for them with his 2-3 remote sensor boosting bassy's/guardians.

Are you basically saying....this is allowed?


Yes, it is. Unfortunately, CCP has created an environment where it's very hard for people to get productive wars in highsec. People are resorting to measures like that in order to be able to get fights. Wardecs are supposed to enable you to engage a target and accomplish a goal: resource denial, kills, POS take-downs, whatever. Now, they're about to simply shrug off wardecs and live in utter safety unless you can muster enough firepower and sec status to run suicide ganks on your targets.

I'm not condoning his camping of 4-4 or hiding behind neutral reps; these are things I won't do. In fact, I've long advocated for changes that would add a lot more risk to those activities.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#588 - 2012-03-16 14:00:26 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Are you basically saying....this is allowed?


As long as they don't change corp when war targets are already in system it's fine.

Correction: they can change corp with WTs in system, but they have to be docked when they do it.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#589 - 2012-03-16 14:02:16 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
This is what happens when you implement hi sec wardecs.

They should just have forbidden all kinds of wardecs or made everyone be able to shoot everyone everywhere. The latter would find little support off hi seccers though.

No, they need to make wardecs work in a sensible way rather than what has existed before.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#590 - 2012-03-16 14:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
When I read about this in another thread I just couldn't believe it. And the Eve-U dec shield described in this thread is outdated. The new and improved version is where you just join a specialized alliance, transferring your wardec onto them, and they you get booted out again, leaving the wardec behind. This pretty much breaks the entire system of wardeccing.

When timed correctly this also makes it completely impossible to remove any pos in high-sec, because the owner can just keep hopping between the reinforced timer and the wardec timer.

HOW IS THIS NOT AN EXPLOIT FFS?! Is the whole GM department staffed by clueless carebears that whenever they got wardecced as a player they just go play WoW for a month instead?

Wardecs can be nasty and vicious, especially against newie corps. But a corp that can't take a little speedbump, has no reason to exist in the first place. Any corp worth their office-rent welcomes a wardec, because it's a great opportunity to tighten the bonds between the members and test their mettle. Wardecs are a VITAL in order to keep Empire healthy.

I know there will be an overhaul in the next content pacht, but this doesn't bode well... too many devs that barely play the game and a GM-staff with a carebear attitude, sidestepping blatant exploits like this.

CSM7 should really take a good look at this.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#591 - 2012-03-16 15:25:01 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
CSM7 should really take a good look at this.


I think there's a post by a GM somewhere in this thread that indicates that the purpose of this was to identify all the issues with the wardec system by allowing people to fully abuse it. The implication I get from that is that they intend to fix those issues.

I think, though, that this has gone on long enough and the rules need to be reinstated until Inferno is released this summer.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#592 - 2012-03-16 16:21:15 UTC
How long until the PVP flag?
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#593 - 2012-03-17 04:34:25 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
CSM7 should really take a good look at this.

If I'm elected, you can be assured they will take a long hard look at the dec system so CCP gets it right this time.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
The Lost Drone Society
#594 - 2012-03-17 05:18:46 UTC
Re-Wardec them, it isn't like it's a serious amount of money, I more than that on a single mining cycle. Can we please stop necroing this useless thread, it was a tear fest from the start, and it still is. HTFU and re dec them after they leave their shield. If you can't afford that, you probably should be asking yourself if you can really afford to dec in the first place.

(and for those that ask, I started EVE just over 1 year ago, in that time, my alliance spent 16 weeks out of 52 under War Dec, which means this toon stayed docked up, I even started a PVP toon to help during those times, but during the last one, which lasted 3 weeks, the dec'ers docked up anytime we had more than 3 people online)

Not sure I should really complain too much, my Hulk runs on tears and threads like this help keep the tank full Pirate

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#595 - 2012-03-17 05:25:59 UTC
necro'ing this thread was a great idea. This is a ******** decision and should be reversed.


Avoiding wardecs is an exploit directly aimed at avoiding intended game mechanics.

Whats the point of a wardec if corps can just pussy out of them without any risk? Why did CCP even implement wardecs in the first place? So that corporations can fight eachother with consent? Then why did you provide the 'declare mutual' option as an OPTION.

Avoiding wardecs is an exploit, thats all there is to it.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Chron Aldazaar
Suddenly Mostly Individually Really Clueless
#596 - 2012-03-17 12:26:01 UTC
The fact remains it looks like this was done to keep the miners and carebears happy. I mean wasn't it the same with the learning system? People were complaining that they didn't want to train those skills and "Waste" time to earn up their crap. It's just a fact that when the masses who don't do what the rest of us do complain, we suffer.

I agree with Terminal, it's an exploit to avoid an intended game mechanic. In my opinion, it should be dealt with, what's the point of even implementing a War Dec system if the people who get decked are gonna run off and hide behind someone? It's a pain in the hind quarters having to deal with that garbage. It feels like the PvPers who do High Sec wars are getting the shaft here.
Valencia Mariana
Eagle and Lion Corporate Agents
#597 - 2012-03-17 15:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Valencia Mariana
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Looks like a field repair to me.

What's the ratio of high-sec wardecs for the goal of griefing noob corps to wealthy high-sec corps escaping challenges to their position?


The general idea of the war declaration is to pay off CONCORD to get the rights to blow up some other organizations assets for what purpose? I suspect the intended idea was leverage. If you want to mine all the ore and ice, but someone who is better at it is doing it in the same space you want to do it, you kill them.

Fair enough. That's Eve.


But what is the statistic of high-sec corps being war decced actually being such organizations in a dominating position?

How many are small noob corps simply getting decced so some ass-hats who can't handle low-sec or afford 0.0 rent can pad their killboards?

This reminds me of the hunting rules in the USA. Most of these rules seem dumb and redundant, like not being able to use a high-capacity magazine - but the rules exist because: "Some moron already did something dumb so now there's a rule for it".

So while the concept of the war dec is sound based on the original reason, the USE of the war dec as a utility for griefers has pretty much ruined it for everybody.


So y'all abused the toy and fought over it, now mommie's taking it away.



+1

Wars should be to fight over resources not so someone whom usually logs in once a week can hunt guys. Usually as soon as you send some pvp guys to engage they dock up and wait for the pvp guys to get bored then hunt mission runners and miners again.

Result is no fighting unless they have the opportunity to hint a miner./mission runner. To prevent giving them the opportunity you pretty much have to tell everyone whom is not pvp ready to log off and tell everyone else who is playing to stop what they are doing just in-case he undocks. The result is stagnation of activity due to not being able to pve and not being able to pvp (they don't engage unless your doing pve).

Last 3 war dec we got have all been like this. It just makes the game boring. BTW I am I am pro-pvp but the system in EVE is terrible.

Valencia Mariana The Red Circle Inc.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#598 - 2012-03-17 15:48:24 UTC
Valencia Mariana wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Looks like a field repair to me

What's the ratio of high-sec wardecs for the goal of griefing noob corps to wealthy high-sec corps escaping challenges to their position


The general idea of the war declaration is to pay off CONCORD to get the rights to blow up some other organizations assets for what purpose? I suspect the intended idea was leverage. If you want to mine all the ore and ice, but someone who is better at it is doing it in the same space you want to do it, you kill them.

Fair enough. That's Eve


But what is the statistic of high-sec corps being war decced actually being such organizations in a dominating position

How many are small noob corps simply getting decced so some ass-hats who can't handle low-sec or afford 0.0 rent can pad their killboards

This reminds me of the hunting rules in the USA. Most of these rules seem dumb and redundant, like not being able to use a high-capacity magazine - but the rules exist because: "Some moron already did something dumb so now there's a rule for it"

So while the concept of the war dec is sound based on the original reason, the USE of the war dec as a utility for griefers has pretty much ruined it for everybody.


So y'all abused the toy and fought over it, now mommie's taking it away



+

Wars should be to fight over resources not so someone whom usually logs in once a week can hunt guys. Usually as soon as you send some pvp guys to engage they dock up and wait for the pvp guys to get bored then hunt mission runners and miners again.

Result is no fighting unless they have the opportunity to hint a miner./mission runner. To prevent giving them the opportunity you pretty much have to tell everyone whom is not pvp ready to log off and tell everyone else who is playing to stop what they are doing just in-case he undocks. The result is stagnation of activity due to not being able to pve and not being able to pvp (they don't engage unless your doing pve)

Last 3 war dec we got have all been like this. It just makes the game boring. BTW I am I am pro-pvp but the system in EVE is terrible.



HIGH SEC is the paradise of all risk averse and self proclaimed pvp players who are only and just good at exploit each and every game mechanic, including use of external progs while in game to get all profit and take 0 risk or minimum possible

What you just described is the result of hilarious mechanics making high sec the paradise for "Elite PVP" players that in fact are the risk averse ones

Yet CCP does nothing about this but "dec shield" a valid mechanic witch is peanuts for real high sec industrials haulers miners small indy corps that could actually retain more new players without those "elite pvp" parasites
This dec shield stuff profits, once again, to those exploiting the mechanic failures as usual.
Dave Day
Universal Freelance
#599 - 2012-03-19 18:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Day
Chron Aldazaar wrote:
It's just a fact that when the masses who don't do what the rest of us do complain, we suffer..


That's called democracy.....More importantly to CCP it's called "The majority of our paying customers are pissed off by something that the minority do....now which group do we need to please to stand the best chance of keeping the most active subs and a nice car on the driveway"

Your hi sec pew pew fun versus their mortgages.....that must be a tough call for them.Roll
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#600 - 2012-03-20 01:55:51 UTC
Dave Day wrote:
Chron Aldazaar wrote:
It's just a fact that when the masses who don't do what the rest of us do complain, we suffer..


That's called democracy.....More importantly to CCP it's called "The majority of our paying customers are pissed off by something that the minority do....now which group do we need to please to stand the best chance of keeping the most active subs and a nice car on the driveway"

Your hi sec pew pew fun versus their mortgages.....that must be a tough call for them.Roll
A minority? You should look at the numbers again.