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Humble Raving of an Insane T2 module producer...
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Raisa Mole
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-03-17 12:16:06 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
degini wrote:
If you sell to buy orders you are doing it wrong, and no wonder profits are bad for you. It may be trade profit but it is trade profit in YOUR pocket, not someone else's.


ugh . . .
1) learn to read
2) learn to think

I never said to only sell to buy orders. I said to calculate the MANUFACTURING PROFIT you had to use sell orders pricing for components and buy order prices for the finished goods. Every ISK above buy orders price that you sell for is TRADE PROFIT, not MANUFACTURING PROFIT.

I also never said don't take advantage of the trade profit in an item. Don't be an idiot and think you make 1 Million/ISK an hour with your manufacturing slots, when you are losing money on your manufacturing and making all your ISK(+ covering your manufacturing losses) with your trading.

Pro Tip : Trade the goods that are profitable to trade and manufacture the goods that are profitable to manufacture.

-FM


Ok, beginning to get a picture of why you are insisting that selling to sell orders is always trade profit, you're using two different standards for the components and the finished product. Let me ask you a question. What is your definition of market price, or going rate? Is it buy orders, sell orders, or the average of the two? You should use that definition for BOTH the components and the finished product. You're saying that the going rate for components is sell orders, but the going rate for finished products is buy orders. That makes no sense.

If you are saying that the going rate is sell orders (as you use for components), you should apply the same definition to your products (sell to sell orders). You can do it the other way and say the going rate is buy orders, but then you should be applying that to your components as well and buying them from buy orders.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-03-17 18:23:57 UTC
Raisa Mole wrote:


That is incorrect. Trade profit buys you the spread, aka buying from buy orders and selling to sell orders. You should always be buying from sell orders and selling to the same type of order for manufacturing, this means you are getting no benefit of the spread, thus it's not trade profit. Your example is incorrect, there is no product in the universe where you can buy it from a sell order and then sell it to a sell order and make a profit (well, unless the market spikes).

When did I advocate buying from buy orders? Please quote where I said that. I said TO CALCULATE MANUFACTURING PROFIT (as opposed to TRADE PROFIT) you have to use buy orders prices for your components and sell orders for your finished product. That is your MANUFACTURING PROFIT, everything else is TRADE PROFIT.

I never said to not take advantage of trade profit, but a mart manufacturer needs to recognize the difference.

Why does it matter?
It matters here for two reasons . . .
1) The OP asked about profitable T2 items to MANUFACTURE, not to trade. YOU happened to point out some ridiculous MANUFACTURING PROFIT from T1 items. I call BS. You have no MANUFACTURING PROFIT and lots of TRADE PROFIT.

2) When people set up their spread sheets they need to understand to difference so that they know what it is PROFITABLE TO MANUFACTURE. If an item you want to sell has ridiculous trade profit and no manufacturing profit then don't manufacture it. Just trade it.


Quote:

Buying from sell orders and selling to buy orders is LOSING you the spread. Don't get me wrong, I see why you do it, it's a LOT faster than maintaining sell order, and often can make you more profit anyway if your cycles are quick and the spread isn't big.

Always buy/sell to the same type of order to get the manufacturing profit.

Edit : To be clear, I would never manufacture anything with such a thin profit margin that I'd lose money if I dumped it to buy orders, I always retain that option if I don't want to spend the time putting them up to sell orders. So really, it's no skin off my nose if you want to call some of my profit trade and some of it manufacturing. I think you're wrong, but we're just using two different definitions and criteria to reach the same end conclusion anyway, so in a real sense it doesn't matter.


It matters in your make/buy decision. If the manufacturing part is not profitable, JUST TRADE IT.
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-03-18 02:32:08 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
Aunannata Utonda wrote:

To offset the lousy trade hub margins I cannot stress enough the necessity of buying materials via buy orders and selling your products at places other than the competitive trade hubs. The latter is not always easy to do depending on how far you've overstretched, but consider it a form of passive income.


I'm sorry to say, but if you have to buy inputs from buy orders, then you aren't profiting from manufacturing - you are profiting from trading. In fact if you DON'T make profit from manufacturing by buying from sell orders, then you would be better off not manufacturing that item at all, and instead station trading the input materials.


Personally I'll settle for making a profit on materials acquisition, a profit on transformation and a profit on sale. If that makes m more trader than industrilit all I can say is meh, I'm in it for the isk not the title of industrialist.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#44 - 2012-03-18 06:57:24 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
A great example of someone who just doesn't get it . . .

I was very happy today when my BPO collection hit 53.559b when I dropped 12.339b out-of-pocket on a deal I couldn't refuse. So I think I do okay in spite of being completely clueless. Forum regulars might even agree that from time to time I try to be helpful, and might even be worth paying attention to now and then.

Fango Mango wrote:
For the item that you sell in Rens . . .
You are a trader that happens to like using the manufacturing mini-game to limit your potential earnings.
Why not just buy from the Jita and sell in Rens if that is where all the profit comes from? Then you aren't wasting your manufacturing slots producing something that isn't profitable to manufacture.

In your exuberance to lecture me on trading between hubs, you entirely missed my point: different items sell differently in the various markets. If you are having problems selling stuff to people, try selling them what they want to buy instead of what you want to manufacture.

Too many people assume they can build anything and it will sell well. They don't look at the trade volumes AND the margins (or the broker fess and taxes on buy and sell orders).

"X doesn't sell!" or "Y doesn't earn enough!" Then why the heck are you producing X or Y, and why didn't you notice this BEFORE you manufactured them?!!

Too many people also don't follow the changes in the markets. What is wanted today may not be tomorrow.

If myself and others are having no problems earning via manufacturing, and see tons of opportunity for others, surely there comes a time to re-evaluate what you are doing rather than blaming others for your lack of success.

TIP: Ignore market web sites and check for yourself. Make your own spreadsheets. I've yet to find a website that wasn't misleading (the lop listed items rarely ever are worth producing).
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#45 - 2012-03-18 11:35:05 UTC
Had that rant been about anything but profit I could've understood ?!

You can make t2 products WHILE creating t1 ship hulls for instance you realise ? If you don't have enough toons, you end up with downtime on the production queues anyhow, and if you DO have enough toons, you can easily make one a permanent t1 producer (perhaps the copy toon, there's always a copy toon ;)).

.
Maeste Madeveda
The Spawning Pool
#46 - 2012-03-18 14:07:35 UTC
One think that hasn't been said in this discussion is how your approach changes with the capital you can invest. A month a go, I was forced to loan money in order to do something remotely profitable (my own scale is a PLEX/month). I couldn't afford to buy supplies I would not use in the next 10 days. I was forced to be very effective and work in small batch. Nowadays I do the same but I can afford to buy supplies that I won't use immediately and still have always a PLEX ready.

The people who are selling with losses are either cocky newbies or stupid nullbears. They don't know what they do and won't learn anyway. Some of them might just crash the market to annoy people.


I have looked the profit of T2 items and I have yet to see anything that is vastly more profitable than I do in term of ISk/h. Sales are of course much higher and I have an upper limit of the market share I can seize on what I do right now, and if I want a new toon, I might have to manufacture T2.
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#47 - 2012-03-18 15:43:05 UTC
Raisa Mole wrote:

Illustrative Example : It costs you 22 million on the nose to make a Manticore. They sell in Jita for 21.6 million, or you can sell them in a border or lowsec system for 25 million. Should you manufacture Manticores to sell in that lowsec system?

The answer is no, making the manticore is losing you .4 million. You should instead be buying that product from Jita and transporting it to lowsec to sell.


It depends where you make those manticores. If you're making them in one of the Jita stations, then yes, you are losing 0.4 mil per manticore you bother to sell. If you're making them one jump out from the low sec system you sell them in, then you may be, but probably aren't making a profit over transporting manticores from Jita. It depends on whether the effort and cost (including opportunity costs of assets such as t1 BPOs and whether or not you are running a POS) of manufacture at that location exceeds the corresponding effort and cost of hauling manticores from Jita.

Frankly, it probably doesn't. The 2% premium of buying jita Manticores (plus the premium of extra hauling) mostly likely outweighs the hassles of your manufacturing chain and is far more agile. What will you do, if some trader spots the difference and sells Jita manticores in your system? You probably have a bunch of work under production that you now have to sell at whatever you can get and maybe even scuttle.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#48 - 2012-03-18 17:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
This is an OLD website, but still works funnily enough - it grabs prices from eve central and as they haven't changed the xml for a long time, the website still works ;) Althought it is missing a few blueprints which have been added in recent times (towers, pos fuels etc..)

http://www.xn7.de/index.php

It will estimate profits based upon what you want to build, and will break down all the various parts. It might take you an hour or so how to learn to use it, but is very easy once you know how (getting profits on a t2 item from invention can take around 20 seconds once u understand how it works).

I suggest using it if you have no other easier means (spreadsheet?) to do so and are losing money.

Personally, I cannot understand how you can possibly lose money making t2 unless you just aren't putting in the effort or worse not doing the sums beforehand??
(Also, you can't fix stupid)

.
Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-03-19 10:47:29 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
This is an OLD website, but still works funnily enough - it grabs prices from eve central and as they haven't changed the xml for a long time, the website still works ;) Althought it is missing a few blueprints which have been added in recent times (towers, pos fuels etc..)

http://www.xn7.de/index.php

It will estimate profits based upon what you want to build, and will break down all the various parts. It might take you an hour or so how to learn to use it, but is very easy once you know how (getting profits on a t2 item from invention can take around 20 seconds once u understand how it works).

I suggest using it if you have no other easier means (spreadsheet?) to do so and are losing money.

Personally, I cannot understand how you can possibly lose money making t2 unless you just aren't putting in the effort or worse not doing the sums beforehand??
(Also, you can't fix stupid)


See, even if you make some T2 items and sell them at crappy prices to buy orders, you're still likely to walk away with a net gain when it comes to ISK in your wallet. So, in that sense it does take a special someone to actually lose money on T2 production. However, take into account the time it took you to make said T2 items from start (buying your raw materials) to finish (dumping the product to a buy order). Now calculate ISK/hr and consider what else you might have done during that time that could have been much more profitable (and about as AFK as manufacturing is, it works while you sleep after all). That would be a lot of things since you're making ISK, but it's such terrible ISK/hr that it's hardly worth it. Basically, opportunity cost, blah blah blah. It's not just the number of ISKies in your wallet that count if you actually value your time.

I fully endorse the usage of "market guide" websites, btw. Leaves more actually good market opportunities for me Twisted
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-03-19 17:03:20 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
Taedrin wrote:
Aunannata Utonda wrote:

To offset the lousy trade hub margins I cannot stress enough the necessity of buying materials via buy orders and selling your products at places other than the competitive trade hubs. The latter is not always easy to do depending on how far you've overstretched, but consider it a form of passive income.


I'm sorry to say, but if you have to buy inputs from buy orders, then you aren't profiting from manufacturing - you are profiting from trading. In fact if you DON'T make profit from manufacturing by buying from sell orders, then you would be better off not manufacturing that item at all, and instead station trading the input materials.


Personally I'll settle for making a profit on materials acquisition, a profit on transformation and a profit on sale. If that makes m more trader than industrilit all I can say is meh, I'm in it for the isk not the title of industrialist.


So long as you are earning a significant profit on the transformation part of your process, then you are still an industrialist (as well as also a trader). But if you wouldn't manufacture the item without buying from buy orders, then you are wasting your time with the manufacturing process. If you were a rational and consistent person you would skip the manufacturing process and just sell to sell orders.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-03-22 00:36:40 UTC
Is there a tl;dr version of this thread?

Summary:

- price your inputs on SELL order prices
- sometimes you'll make more profit reselling inputs rather than manufacturing with them
- minerals you mine aren't free
- trade opportunites outside Jita/Amarr/major hub
Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-03-22 18:47:58 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Is there a tl;dr version of this thread?

- minerals you mine aren't free



I was waiting for someone to kick that rotting carcass...
Anishoara
Federal Institute Service
#53 - 2012-03-26 00:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Anishoara
Didn't read the whole thread, but for me there is 2 reasons why T2 modules can be pain in the ass and also not rentable.

1 - T2 modules manufacturing means T2 BPC of 10 runs. Lot of modules are build very fast, and your 10 run BPC can exhaust in less than 3 or 4 hours. If you can't relaunch another production (you are not at home/working/etc) mean you will waste a job for 16 hours ... So your "ISK per hour" from that job will be really bad.

2 - There is so many market bot that can be really crazy to sell modules without to do tons on reajustements of you sell price ... You update your price, you can be sure a bot will update in less than a minute as the T2 modules market is largely focused by those bots ...
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