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Nighthawk vs Tengu vs Rattlesnake vs CNR vs Golem
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Charlie Crocodile
Sorfus Morfus
#21 - 2012-03-16 10:20:53 UTC
Thistlefury wrote:
Cedo Nulli wrote:
The people who mentioned golem as the level 4 runner .... they really need to get out more and test new things. As golem pilot I urge you not to waste SP by going down that trail. Marauders overall need to be looked at.

Overall winner from your list is tengu and for the less active playstyle rattler.


Wooowoooot ? What planet are you from sir ? The golem is an absolute beast when it comes to missions. The added salvage/loot isk income is good aswell. Probably _the_ best mission ship, except for missions with alot of traveldistance.. but for those you use a tengu and blitz it.


*cough*Machariel*cough*

And the Golem might be a beast on certain BS laden missions when it can get in close and actually apply some of its paper DPS, but its pretty average overall compared to some other more flexible mission runners- Tengu or CNR.

Haulin Gneiss
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-03-18 03:08:08 UTC
I fly a cruise golem with tractors. Yes it's less dps than a cnr but with two republic painters and t2 cruise it still kicks ass. I can target and hit stuff at 110k and pop battle ships in 5 volley, cruisers in 1, and the drones clean the rest. All in the cnr is prolly better but I like the cap stability of the golem. Never had to warp a mission with full aggro on every mission.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-03-18 03:27:17 UTC
Haulin Gneiss wrote:
I fly a cruise golem


The difference between Cruise Golem and CNR loosing 1/4th and 1/7th of your volley damage to defender missiles. If that's worth being cap stable to you, fair enough, but it is far from a marginal dps loss.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-03-18 03:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Rokh with 4 mag stabs and 425 rails. You would be surprised.

But then if you trained missiles over rails its not much help.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
OfBalance
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-03-18 04:29:50 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
Rokh with 4 mag stabs and 425 rails.


It's not a bad alternative to the bog-standard Raven, but there is no progression to it unless you want to crosstrain for a vindi or kronos. Of course, getting as far as the tengu/heavy missiles and then cross-training is most certainly ideal if you're chasing what's good today.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-03-18 07:18:49 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
Rokh with 4 mag stabs and 425 rails.


It's not a bad alternative to the bog-standard Raven, but there is no progression to it unless you want to crosstrain for a vindi or kronos. Of course, getting as far as the tengu/heavy missiles and then cross-training is most certainly ideal if you're chasing what's good today.



Its got the tank he wanted and the same DPS then a CNR with Anti out to 70 km optimal Depending on if you want to do TE or Tracking Comps. Being able to use Antimatter almost 30 km further then other rail ships thanks to its optimal bonus more then makes up for the lack of damage bonus. You kill almost anything before it gets into drone range.


And You can use the mids for tank and even passive it easily while not losing gank. Also turrets do instant damage which helps keep you from wasting shoots.

Then its easy to crossover to vindi or kronos like you said.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
OfBalance
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-03-18 07:33:11 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:

Its got the tank he wanted and the same DPS then a CNR with Anti out to 70 km optimal Depending on if you want to do TE or Tracking Comps. Being able to use Antimatter almost 30 km further then other rail ships thanks to its optimal bonus more then makes up for the lack of damage bonus. You kill almost anything before it gets into drone range.


I would like to see the fits you are comparing. I have little doubt the rokh is as-good-or-better than the raven (and said as much), but calling it better than a CNR sounds far-fetched.

RougeOperator wrote:

Also turrets do instant damage which helps keep you from wasting shoots.


No argument there, counting volleys sucks. However, if you can stomach that you'll be doing quite well in a CNR as your dps projection is on par with a rokh shooting long-range ammo while achieving better volley damage (delay not withstanding) and being able to do so with any damage type.

RougeOperator wrote:

Then its easy to crossover to vindi or kronos like you said.


Again, fair point, but if we're on about cross training wouldn't the player in question have been better served simply cross training beforehand?
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-03-18 08:06:12 UTC
Selectable damage type is what the CNR has over a Rokh.

I Have run both in missions before but cause i have been testing Rokh since patch i found some interesting things. With anti is has more DPS then the CNR using faction missiles. Not by much but it doesn't need TPs and micro management to do the same job either and you can clear up all the frigs before they get close and not have to use drones at all. No lost DPS due to Defenders and exp velocity and radius the reload time is great as well. You can use rig slots to tank not rigors as well.

And against the rats he is going to be shooting it will clean up just as fast since its hitting both the arm and shield weakness in that range.

Only things it does not do well against is EM weak rats. But It did not do so bad even against them and I was actually finding it just as fast as arty mission maels against angel rats at long range that was a surprise to me. But hitting everything in optimal range rather then some falloff was huge.

And being able to use the new improved jav ammo for more DPS and tracking for rats the move in close is great as well.

Its apples and oranges.

Rokh wins just in pure ease of use and tank for me.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-03-18 08:15:08 UTC
Quote:

[Raven Navy Issue, !]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Co-Processor II

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Trauma Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I


Hammerhead II x5


Quote:

[Rokh, Rail Rhok]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Ancillary Current Router I
[empty rig slot]


Hammerhead II x5


Just for a quick comparison of fits

The Rokh does 698.1 gundps out to 70+49km with CN Antimatter
The CNR does 681.3 missile dps out to lock range with CN Missiles

The Rokh has the vastly superior tank, the CNR has dmg selection.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-03-18 08:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
RougeOperator wrote:
Rokh wins just in pure ease of use and tank for me.


Indeed, everything wins over missile ships (except the tengu) for ease of use and tank these days.

Having done the EFT work myself now, it would appear, using t1 ammo and four damage mods as a base for comparison, the anti-matter rokh does have more than enough damage at effective range to match the CNR. I guess cruise missiles are comparatively worse than I remembered.

I would go with:

[Rokh, Rail Rhok]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Gist C-type XL Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hammerhead II x5

Cap-stable without the shield booster running, a little under 3 mins of tank with it on. Burst tank should be more than fine with rat-specific hardeners on. I suppose you could drop the CCC's in favor of moar gank, cap booster, etc, but :effort:.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-03-18 08:38:09 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
OfBalance wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
Rokh wins just in pure ease of use and tank for me.


Indeed, everything wins over missile ships (except the tengu) for ease of use and tank these days.

Having done the EFT work myself now, it would appear, using t1 ammo and four damage mods as a base for comparison, the anti-matter rokh does have more than enough damage at effective range to match the CNR. I guess cruise missiles are comparatively worse than I remembered.



No they just buffed hybrids. You can fit a full rack of 425s without being left with no way to fit a proper tank now.

And gave it more damage and tracking and the 5 second reload time boosts its DPS as well.

I only talk about the Rokh now cause i actually tested it in game after checking the EFT numbers. I dont like making a claim I have not tested first hand.

The turret advantages just outweigh using missiles to me. EDIT: I also like not having to think about changing damage types mission to mission. As long as its not EM hole rats you can clear most missions easily in the space bus.

You want to see something crazy do a Blaster Rokh in eft. With a TE or two you get huge range with null ammo on blasters. Its amazing to clear Angel missions with a Blaster Rokh. Its a lot of fun. Im not done testing that though.


Mega, Domi, Kronos, Vindi, Rokh all became much better mission ships since patch. Next ship im going to test is a sentry rail domi.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
OfBalance
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-03-18 08:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
RougeOperator wrote:
No they just buffed hybrids.


"Comparatively worse," as in "compared to the new hyrbids, they are worse." So you see, we actually agree. I think you missed my concession in that post. vOv

I would love to test the rokh myself, but that would require me to run missions that aren't epic arcs (which I refuse to run in anything but a t3 thanks to all the jumping across the galaxy). I don't want to run missions. Please don't make me run missions.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-03-18 08:47:19 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
No they just buffed hybrids.


"Comparatively worse," as in "compared to the new hyrbids, they are worse." So you see, we actually agree. I think you missed my concession in that post. vOv

I would love to test the rokh myself, but that would require me to run missions that aren't epic arcs (which I refuse to run in anything but a t3 thanks to all the jumping across the galaxy). I don't want to run missions. Please don't make me run missions.


Cant blame you.

But if you know you are going against Rats weak to Hybrids Rohk is fantastic now. Especially in sites when the stupid rat spawns can be far off.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-03-18 09:50:53 UTC
With the Tengu you have to be glued constantly switching targets and managing speed, shield boosters distance , reloading, not to mention that it eats up a lot of ammo.

Some commonly ignored facts by eftwarriors about the Tengu
OfBalance
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-03-18 09:58:22 UTC
Raven Ether wrote:
constantly switching targets

Indeed, 5 target max sucks.

Raven Ether wrote:

and managing speed

Uh... wat? Just orbit the acceleration gate. There's nothing to manage there.

Raven Ether wrote:

shield boosters distance

Ok, now i'm really lost.

Raven Ether wrote:

reloading, not to mention that it eats up a lot of ammo.

Reloading also sucks, but it eats up no more ammo than any AC ship and scourge/trauma heavies are p. damn cheap.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-03-19 11:40:57 UTC
CNR has a proper answer to Gurista jammers, Missile ships are have better answers to e-war in general, missiles always hit their targets, loss due to explosion radius can be coutered with tp and skill.

EFT is not sacred.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-03-19 15:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: OfBalance
Mike Whiite wrote:
CNR has a proper answer to Gurista jammers, Missile ships are have better answers to e-war in general, missiles always hit their targets, loss due to explosion radius can be coutered with tp and skill.


Sansha carry the only (tracking disruptor) ewar biased toward missiles, unless you count FoF missiles being greater than having decent sensor strength which then only applies to guided missiles. Also, target painters and missile support skills do not make up for the fact low transversal targets of any size can be volley'd. There are very few pve situations where "always hit," is in any way preferable to being able to volley incoming frigs.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-03-19 16:29:15 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:

Just for a quick comparison of fits

The Rokh does 698.1 gundps out to 70+49km with CN Antimatter
The CNR does 681.3 missile dps out to lock range with CN Missiles

The Rokh has the vastly superior tank, the CNR has dmg selection.


just out of laziness, can you drop me that rokh fit?

I should buy an Ishtar.
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