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Why the hate on shield caps/supers?
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The Vastator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-03-17 15:51:35 UTC
Andski wrote:
The Vastator wrote:
Andski wrote:
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
Slaves mean that armor supers have more EHP than their shield counterparts.


the hitpoint reduction in Crucible balanced this out

The hitpoint rebalance didn't fix this as only the hel got a subtle nerf on EHP. A bare aeon still has more EHP than a bare wyvern; This is before factoring slaves. The only thing going for shield caps and supercaps now is the cheaper invuls unlike the old ones that required you to cough out isk worth 3 times the value of the super cap hull.
It's been said before that CCP should create a cap shield extender or increase the shield HP of the affected caps and SCs.


and a fitted wyvern without shield hardwirings has substantially more EHP than a fitted aeon without slaves or hardwirings

interesting that how that turns out

Who the hell flies a SC without slaves?
Alphaphi
KASK Heavy logistics
#22 - 2012-03-18 14:55:41 UTC
i ran the several SC's through PYFA just to see, based on the common fits ofc.

Wyvern EHP W/O implants/hardwirings -> 37-42m
Aeon w. slaves -> 32m
Nyx w. slaves -> 26m
Hel W/O implants/wirings -> 30mil

so yeah, i don't really see why shield supers are so bad EHP wise.
the nyx have more dps to compensate ofc.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-03-18 20:09:23 UTC
The armor/shield nerf is recent as is the introduction of deadspace invuls. Inertia in de (super)cap world is huge as it takes to skill another races ships to 5 again, let alone build a fleet around them.

At this moment for supercaps: shield EHP = armor+slave EHP.
Azeroth Uluntil
Last Chance for Redemption
FFEW Associates
#24 - 2012-03-18 23:50:50 UTC
I think the majority of you are beating around the wrong bush as far as this goes.

One of the main reasons in regards to the hatred of shield caps and super caps was their effectiveness when used with a support fleet. The majority of current support fleets were armor based, and thus the capitals fit armor in order to keep things simple and uniform. Shield fleets were mostly not viable for a period of time.

As things have changed and we see more and more shield fleets, the super capital pilots themselves aren't retraining for shield capitals to match, because it is a waste of time. Most notably, the amount of armor based capitals grossly outnumber shield based capitals used in actual combat.

But then again, I've been gone for a year, so who knows?
Snooze
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-03-19 00:03:41 UTC
I think you're right Az, it also goes the other way around.

1600mm's gave more HP on subcaps which meant they became the preferred choice for heavy supcapital gangs.

Those gangs would later be Capital supported, and thus armor Carriers were the preferred logistics.

Since there were Armor Carriers, Armor Dreads became preferred, and so on. So their popularity can really be traced both ways.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#26 - 2012-03-19 08:55:53 UTC
Heres another perspective.

There are over 2.2 supers built for every super destroyed.

Diagoras' stats showed 1579 Nyx, 640 Aeon, 296 Wyvern, 116 Hel's flown as of 15th March.
For carriers, 3243 Thanatos, 1716 Archon, 1566 Chimera, 838 Niddhogur.

Clearly there is retraining going on between capital capable pilots and those moving to supers; 20% of non-Gallente carrier capable pilots then go on to retrain into Gallente carrier to access the Nyx.

So assuming that represents manufacturing percentages too, nearly 60% of new supers will be Nyx's and 44% of new carriers will be Thanatos.

But here's the thing. Nearly ALL supercap pilots are stuck in their boats until it pops. So, clearly, whether or not you just buy an alt for the task or suck it up and trap your main, you want the best ship and up until Crucible 1.5-ish, that was the Nyx. Because of the raw DPS, it still kinda is the Nyx. Because of longheld opinion within the community that the Wyvern sucks, it will still be the Nyx.

When you finally do get the theorycrafting gnomes to convince you otherwise, and the hypothetical shift to Wyvern blobs occurs (post some future buff of citadel torps) one fact remains - you are stuck in your Nyx until you sell it (possible, but rare) or it gets popped (very unlikely even now).

So, don't hold your breath until supers start dying in droves, freeing the pilots up to actually make the move...if they'e even trained for the Wyvern or Hel.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Lighter INC
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-03-20 14:30:00 UTC
Order of relevance:

1) IMO - its the rep carrier support
Have you ever tried to build up a proper RR chimera + local rep chimera?
CPU is kinda tight, no? They seriously dont want ppl to use shield cap mods on shield carriers :D

2) Med slots are used for ewar and electronics upgrades which is much more important on caps... basically armor tank is less used in subcap due to slowing down ships and lack of damage mods in that case... u dont need damage mods on carriers, you need: sebo, TPs, officer points and webs... mount any of these to a SC and you have taken off 2-3M EHP Blink

3) Lack of cap as mentioned previously

4) Slaves, aeon beats wyvern with slaves set :) as fas as EHP goes...
Joyelle
SludgeSlingers
#28 - 2012-03-20 18:57:06 UTC
Alphaphi wrote:
i ran the several SC's through PYFA just to see, based on the common fits ofc.

Wyvern EHP W/O implants/hardwirings -> 37-42m
Aeon w. slaves -> 32m
Nyx w. slaves -> 26m
Hel W/O implants/wirings -> 30mil

so yeah, i don't really see why shield supers are so bad EHP wise.
the nyx have more dps to compensate ofc.



PYFA must have a different way of calculating EHP.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#29 - 2012-03-21 02:44:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
[Wyvern, Maxtank]
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System

Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pith X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith X-Type Ballistic Deflection Field
Pith X-Type Explosion Dampening Field
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type Photon Scattering Field

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Large Core Defence Field Extender II


EHP: 44,743,052
Raw Shield Hitpoints: 2,454,255
Resistance Profile: 93.7 // 92.9 // 94.7 // 95.6
Passive Shield Tank due to Shield Recharge rate (maximum at 30? %): 5,434 DPS
Capuse // Caprecharge: -18.4 // 96.9
Used Implants:
- Slot 7: Zainou Gnome KVA3000
- Slot 8: Noble ZET3300
- Slot 9: Zainou Gnome KYA3000



[Aeon, Maxtank]
Damage Control II
Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Thermic Hardene
Corpus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II



EHP: 43,152,952
Raw Armor Hitpoints: 3,153,889
Resistance Profile: 94.3 // 92.6 // 91.4 // 90.9
Passive Shield Tank due to Shield Recharge rate (maximum at 30? %): 95 DPS ;D
Capuse // Caprecharge: -9.2 // 64.1
Used Implants:
- Full Slave Set
- Akemon's Modified Noble ZET5000


*No Fleetbonuses yet*
*Implant Names might be outdated, don't know*

Summary

In a 1v1, the wyvern would kill any other supercarrier. But that's just stupid. Supercarriers usually work in fleets, which usually involves logistics and other support, like: Points, Webs, Targetpainters. At least I think it works this way. Correct me if I'm wrong. So as i compare these two setups i come to the following conclusion:

The Wyvern tops the EHP chart - not by having more raw hitpoints, but by having the better resistance profile. Also, it is able to overheat ALL hardeners INCLUDING the invulnerability fields, which can give again by far higher resistances than the Aeon can achieve. For me, the math is easy: Better Resists, more effective incoming logi love, more EHP restored per RR-Cycle:


I'm not sure on the math, if incoming damage is omni, whether or not you can just calculate the average resistances and assume the incoming damage would be the same if all resistances would be the new average or the real ones, ... but i'll just do it that way now:
Average Resistances of a Wyvern:
(93.7+92.9+94.7+95.6)/4 = 94.225

Average Resistances of a Aeon:
(94.3+92.6+91.4+90.9)/4 = 92.3

The difference is 1.925 resistance points, which results in 1.925/(100-92.3) = 0.25 ---> 25% more efficient remotereps onto the Wyvern than the Aeon. This value increases, as the Wyvern may overheat the full rack if in trouble.

Shield Supers being vulnerable to neuts? Broadcast for Capacitor. At least SOMEONE in your Capfleet should have Energy Transfers, no? If you're alone, hell, than you just die. Easy. No Logoffski anymore, wait in your ship until you pop. So after an Aeon is neuted out, it will die, too.
However, the Aeon has those 4 midslots it can use for Sensor Boosters, which decreases it's locktime, can apply it's DPS and Logilove or Neut or whatever faster than a Shield Super, which is really nice. Same for the Nyx. +1 for the Armor-Supers.

Note: The inferior locking time of the Shield-Supers might get nasty, when trying to apply Logi-Love, but then again, Shield Transfers apply their HP-Bonus at the beginning of their cycle, Remote Armor Reps at the end. So if you add some Cormack's Modified Sensor Boosters to the Aeon (4, to be exactly) and run them with Sensor Resolution Scripts, you come to a locktime of 1.6 seconds onto a carrier, + the 5 seconds cycle time, which is 6.6 seconds for appliance of RR, the Wyvern would need 10.6 Seconds.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#30 - 2012-03-21 02:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Next task: The Support-Fleet, also known as ... Ze Carriers!
Nidhoggur, Thanatos, Archon are Armor-Carriers and have bonus to Remote Armor Rep Range
However, the Nidhoggur and Thanatos also have a bonus to Shield Transfers.
They also have the same slotlayout, which is: 5 Medium Slots, 6 Low Slots. Definately an Armor tank! ... but wait, there's a DCU II. Which eats a Lowslot, and grants both, Shield and Armorresistances, however, slightly more Armor-Resistances.
So all in all, they COULD be shieldtanked, as they have 6 Tankslots in both setups. Fitting is probably the issue, with incredible CPU usage of those damn Shield Transfers, but you have 5 lowslots to spare. I haven't run these things through EFT, and probably the numbers suck donkeyballs cause it's EFT-Warrioring, but f uck it, it might work. Issue could be Triage-Fittings, as these two carriers would probably have both, tanking and capacitor issues.

So next thing would be: What's better, DPS (Nyxes!) or Tank?
I like the idea of killing something as fast as possible, to take out it's dps and then proceed to the next target. However, i also REALLY like the idea of just ignoring this and start tanking like a bauss, you know, like, takes 25% less damage than an Aeon, for example, which... well. Shouldn't THIS already negate the increased DPS of the Nyx?! So that it just feels the same for the pilot, as if he was in a Aeon and got shot by other Aeons, and being in a Wyvern and getting shot by Nyxes? ... At least in my (weak) Math-Fu, it does. The passive shield recharge isn't that much of a bonus, as it just becomes so small under the combined firepower of several supercarriers and only starts getting relevant when already deep into shields, which is kind of meh ;P
...

All in all, if I were a major 0.0 Alliance, i would focus on setting up a Shield-Capital Fleet, as the Wyverns are able to take QUITE a beating and can be repped more efficient, buying more time before one of them dies in a spectacular firework, having more time to apply your own dps. In my opinion the benefits are much bigger than the ... what the hell is the contrary to benefit? Doooownsides is the word i was looking for. :)

-Syrias
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#31 - 2012-03-21 03:32:26 UTC
Quick, lets deploy 30 Wyverns backed up by 30 RR Chimeras. Go!

(three months passes)

OK, guys, we've built the ships, who can fly them?

"Oh, sorry, I was training Gender Reassignment 5 and margin trading 5, got a bit distracted..."

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#32 - 2012-03-21 03:48:59 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Quick, lets deploy 30 Wyverns backed up by 30 RR Chimeras. Go!

(three months passes)

OK, guys, we've built the ships, who can fly them?

"Oh, sorry, I was training Gender Reassignment 5 and margin trading 5, got a bit distracted..."

Does Xenuria fly capitals?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
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