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Rant Over, All 4 racial BC 5 to replace current BC 5
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Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#61 - 2012-03-07 07:39:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ioci wrote:
So to me the question seems to be, how do we "nerf proof" for the change?
Train BC V and Dessy V before the change.

Quote:
If they restrict it to Command Ship it makes Command Ship out of line with the other specialist ships of EVE. If CS was just his example, this is much larger than "I can fly a Claymore because I can fly an Abso and a Nighthawk and trained cruiser in Gall and matar to 4".
How do you mean? The way I read it, they're doing the exact opposite: they're removing those restrictions — Command Ships will be to BCs what, say, Logistics is to Cruisers: a simple “role skill” that has its own, quite separate, set of prereqs that have nothing to do with the hull you're flying, and the ships themselves simply have both the “hull skill” and the “role skill” as their prereqs.

Caldari Frigate V + Interceptor = you can fly the Crow and Raptor.
Caldari Cruiser V + Logistic = you can fly the Basilisk.
Caldari Battlecruiser V + Command Ship = you can fly the Nighthawk and Vulture.

They're stripping out all the other ˆirrelevant” prereqs (e.g. Cruiser V for the actual CS ships, and BC V for the CS “role skill”) and making it easier to precisely pick what you want to fly. Command ships are kind of special in this regard due to the silly mess of prereqs they have, and from what I understand, it's exactly that that they want to remove and make all ship classes work the same. Similarly, it sounds like they're removing the Cruiser prereq for the BC hulls (i.e. you no longer have to have Caldari Cruiser III to fly the Drake, you just need Caldari BC II; likewise, the Cormorant only requires Caldari Dessi I, rather than Caldari Frigate III).


I understand and I am aware that BC and Desi are unique. I already posted with Ocih and as I stated, all 4 of my accounts have BC to 5 as well as CS to 4. All my accounts by the sounds of things are going to score big time if they bring this in. I have Logi 5 (for carrier requisite) on them all, Assault cruiser 4 so right now I can fly any Command ship, just not on any char. If this went life today, I would have 4 accounts that can run 8 Command ships each.

So to get to the core of what CCP are doing here, my Account set up would become mandatory for anyone who wants to "catch up" to me. Power of 4 anyone?

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#62 - 2012-03-07 18:09:56 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Though my question is, how will they handle paradoxes?

For example:
I do not have any Gallente ship skills. But, following their plan, I would then have the skills for the dessie and BC of Gallente without the prerequisites. Will this cause the server to explode?

I have neurotoxin recovery and nanite control trained up but don't have biology, not sure how it happened (haven't used boosters in aaaaages) but the server hasn't exploded.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#63 - 2012-03-07 19:08:43 UTC
Remove skills

Reimburse SP

Introduce racial destroyer as rank 1 skill and racial BC as a rank 2

With the reimbursed SP and a couple of days of training, everone will be able to fly the same ships again without putting the few alts that don't have BC V yet at a major disadvantage. Who gives a toss if they're quick to train? BCs are todays frigs anyway.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Hauling Hal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-03-07 20:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Hauling Hal
Idea for discussion/flaming:

The inherenet problem is the existance of the Destroyer and Battlecruiser as a ship specific skill. My view is that they should remove Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills and not replace them. Destroyer requirements should be based on Frigate skill with a race specific skill and Battlecruiser requirements should be based on Cruiser skill with a race specific skill. The ship's bonus should be based on the lower ship requirement's skill level.

E.G.
Myrmidon: Gallente Cruiser 4 and Drone somethingorother 4
Drake: Caldari Cruiser 4 and Shield somethingorother 4
Hurricane:Minmatar Cruiser 4 and omgI'msospeedysomethingother 4
Etc

T2 variants then require level 5 in both skills plus a T2 ship role skill.

Another option, is to make Destroyers and Battlecruisers a hybrid and require the ship skills above and below. i.e. Destroyer needs Frigate 4 and Cruiser 1, Battlecruiser needs Cruiser 4 and BS 1.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#65 - 2012-03-07 21:08:26 UTC
It's been said before, but lets hear it again.

CCP doesn't give a damn about how many skill points people have, mostly because it simply doesn't matter.

The only thing important to them, and all that should be important to you, is that you retain all of the ABILITIES that you had before the change.

The only thing that the total of your skill points is relevant to is what level of clone you need... nothing more.

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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#66 - 2012-03-07 22:44:18 UTC
However, for those care, make sure you check your clone is up to date when this goes live.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-03-08 00:19:07 UTC
I think it would be fair for CCP to reimburse enough points to raise one racial battlecruiser skill up to a certain level.

Say if you have battlecruisers at 4, you would be able to put the reimburse points directly into caldari battlecruiser 4 but nothing else.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Xyla Vulchanus
Players vs. EVE
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2012-03-17 11:15:16 UTC
Shogun Archer wrote:
They should have just had racial BC and Dessie in the first place.

All they need to do to fix it is let you have the SPs you've spent on BC or Destroyers and reallocate them to the specific racial ship(s) of your choice...

How is this even debatable?

You don't get free skill points just because you trained BC to 5.

Entitlement kiddies, please keep the whines to yourselves. It's kinda pathetic.


You're a fool.

So you think it's ok that a player is simply given 30 days training time in only needing BS IV to fly a carrier, but that I (as someone who has 2 cruisers skilled to V and BC V) should have to (remap my skills and) train for an extra 35 days to be able to fly two racial BCs at V, as I already now can?

It's not about being entitled, but if you insist on using terms you hear on the internet, then ok fine - if I have trained a skill to a certain level then yes, I do feel entitled to possess that skill at such a level. It's pretty much common sense.

If they are going to push this change through then they should give every carrier pilot a reimbursement of BS V skillpoints (and then they could choose to train it to V again or use the points elsewhere). And anyone who can fly a ship at a certain level, should still be able to fly that ship at the same level after the expansion.
seany1212
M Y S T
#69 - 2012-03-17 11:31:48 UTC
Xyla Vulchanus wrote:
Shogun Archer wrote:
They should have just had racial BC and Dessie in the first place.

All they need to do to fix it is let you have the SPs you've spent on BC or Destroyers and reallocate them to the specific racial ship(s) of your choice...

How is this even debatable?

You don't get free skill points just because you trained BC to 5.

Entitlement kiddies, please keep the whines to yourselves. It's kinda pathetic.


You're a fool.

So you think it's ok that a player is simply given 30 days training time in only needing BS IV to fly a carrier, but that I (as someone who has 2 cruisers skilled to V and BC V) should have to (remap my skills and) train for an extra 35 days to be able to fly two racial BCs at V, as I already now can?

It's not about being entitled, but if you insist on using terms you hear on the internet, then ok fine - if I have trained a skill to a certain level then yes, I do feel entitled to possess that skill at such a level. It's pretty much common sense.

If they are going to push this change through then they should give every carrier pilot a reimbursement of BS V skillpoints (and then they could choose to train it to V again or use the points elsewhere). And anyone who can fly a ship at a certain level, should still be able to fly that ship at the same level after the expansion.


Confirming this, I can fly all command ships, I wouldn't want to lose the ability to fly 6 of them because CCP decided to shuffle the skills around. That's why I am thankful of there resolution.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-03-17 12:43:41 UTC
I gave up on fighting this long ago. It's a stupid, unnecessary change but CCP's Hakarl-infused logic is that complicating cross-training is beneficial for new players. Oh well.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#71 - 2012-03-17 13:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Just reimburse the SP.

Giving players 3 months of free training because they had BC at 5, over those who didn't is just stupid. To the ridiculous whiners who want to retain their ability to fly ALL racial BC and CS: well boohoo! You just use the reimbursed skillpoints to make one racial BC at 5 (or two races at 4). Then you train the rest up LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

Don't whine about what you can no longer do (until you learn skills again, which you will if it is really that important to you), but be grateful you were lucky enough to enjoy the diversity for so long for so little skillpoints invested.

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Tobiaz
Spacerats
#72 - 2012-03-17 13:58:21 UTC
doublepost

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seany1212
M Y S T
#73 - 2012-03-17 14:06:04 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:

Giving players 3 months of free training because they had BC at 5, over those who didn't is just stupid.


The fact they're doing it at all is stupid. Another effort to milk the cash cow for 3 more months and it has no benefit other than to make the skill tables look right. Why now? They only just realised in the past 9 years? Morons Roll
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#74 - 2012-03-17 14:15:38 UTC
Sasha Azala wrote:
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
SKILLS:

  • Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.




    • As people have only spent x amount of time training them they should only get the same amount back.


    What ccp proposes is the best solution. You could fly all these ships at a certain level before this change and you will be able to do that after the change. If people respecced after training these skills they will not be punished.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #75 - 2012-03-17 14:25:58 UTC
    Tobiaz wrote:
    Giving players 3 months of free training because they had BC at 5, over those who didn't is just stupid.
    What's stupid about minimising the impact this change will have on people? (It's only two months, by the way.)

    As for the question you edited out: easy, they just inject it in the database.

    At any rate, chances are that they'll just make it a conditional upgrade: [racial] Cruiser III + Battlecruiser n → [racial] Battlecruiser n. Fiddling around with SP reimbursements is just messy in every way.
    Taedrin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #76 - 2012-03-17 14:52:17 UTC
    Corina Jarr wrote:
    Though my question is, how will they handle paradoxes?

    For example:
    I do not have any Gallente ship skills. But, following their plan, I would then have the skills for the dessie and BC of Gallente without the prerequisites. Will this cause the server to explode?


    No, ships also have "secondary" and "tertiary" skill requirements which must be fulfilled before they can be piloted.

    Or in other words, the Brutix currently requires Gallente Cruiser level 3 right now in order to be piloted. This is not going to change, even if it will also require Gallente Battlecruiser I.
    Cipher Jones
    The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
    #77 - 2012-03-17 14:56:49 UTC
    Shogun Archer wrote:
    They should have just had racial BC and Dessie in the first place.

    All they need to do to fix it is let you have the SPs you've spent on BC or Destroyers and reallocate them to the specific racial ship(s) of your choice...

    How is this even debatable?

    You don't get free skill points just because you trained BC to 5.

    Entitlement kiddies, please keep the whines to yourselves. It's kinda pathetic.


    Because taking something you have already given is grounds for people rage quitting left and right. Denial won't make it different and neither will rationalization.

    internet spaceships

    are serious business sir.

    and don't forget it
    Tanya Powers
    Doomheim
    #78 - 2012-03-17 15:03:15 UTC
    Grey Stormshadow wrote:
    If they give more skill points to player A than player B - there is much greater problem and much more whining coming.


    I'm starting to have some issues with this too.
    From what I understand reading CCP's comment is that the guy with cruiser 3 or 4 and BS 1 in each race but Battlecruiser 5 gets a shift ton of free SP to get each racial BC at 5.
    The guy already with all subcap 5 will get a shift ton of SP so he gets the racial BC's at 5 too

    The new guy will have to train each race completely and independently. Malcanis law strikes again and this sucks, really sucks.
    23 Days of training for a level 5 without distinction is already completely silly but this just makes it so char become more specialised and once again more than ever this means you don't want to start Gallente.

    Hot folder
    Herold Oldtimer
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #79 - 2012-03-17 16:17:20 UTC
    I have a little trouble understanding the forum people at the moment.

    You complain about item renames on the grounds that it "dumbs" the game down.

    And you complain about the ship rebalance and racial bc/destroyers on the grounds that it complicates the game.

    ...

    I suppose that the staus quo still is with this. Good move CCP
    Kojach Baumherr
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #80 - 2012-03-17 16:28:18 UTC
    and........if i have level IV in battlecruisers and destroyers?

    ..........