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[Entreaty] How to solve the LP Store/Empire Tags problem.
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Lithely Jaine
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-02-19 06:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lithely Jaine
Bumblefck wrote:
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Sounds like a new spin on the "Oh noes, my precious standings" argument .. clever ploy to use tags as the basis for it, I'll grant you that.

---Warning: Product may contain elements of RP---
Remove ALL tags from high-sec missions, the idea that enemies are allowed to set up shop within the sovereign/policed borders of an Empire's space is ludicrous .. I mean just how bad is the military command structure if they outsource eradication of such cells to lowly station agents.

Tags in FW are plentiful, were they to become a major export item we'd have something to help keep afloat that the solo-bombers can't touch (mainly plexers and 'proper' mission runners who hoard tags).
Tags (ie. anti-faction missions) in LS in general makes heaps more sense as navy patrols are few so it is reasonable that an enemy could haul in umpteen megatons of gear to set up a forward base .. would create a market/product dependency between high- and other-sec much closer to what was originally intended in regards to ore, goo etc. ...

You could of course still have your button saying that you want to fight for the Empire in question, the mission would merely take place in nearby LS system and be concluded with agent suggesting you sign up for the militia proper! .. hahahahaha.



No, this has nothing to do with standings, and everything to do with the brokeness of the LP store requirements.


o boy what a joke.
Guys guys why is the price on items that are very easy to gain so high ? o you mean half the NPC space will shoot me if i gather those Items... o i don't want to do them.

Why is there no supplies ? why are the prices so high i want my LP rewards .
MY LP I NEED MY LP.
Guys guys Tags are broken.
Btw what you propose would make it worst since NONE in their right mind would run ANY faction missions.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#22 - 2012-02-19 10:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Bumblefck
Whoops! My bad

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#23 - 2012-02-25 03:29:17 UTC
+1

Face it. We can already do this. We choose agents that are near other agents for a reason. Making it official would let those willing to run tag missions do so, and visa versa.

There is one more thing I suggest:

Increase the drop rate of tags.

That would deflate the prices while increasing the short term income of those willing to run tag missions. Right now, the real problem is that the rate of LP and tags are out of balance.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2012-02-25 05:50:43 UTC
Lithely Jaine wrote:
..Btw what you propose would make it worst since NONE in their right mind would run ANY faction missions.

If standings are so precious then yes, tags are a bother and a half to acquire. But if you do not care much about standings, do a bit of RP or merely embrace the sandbox of consequence then they are rather bountiful.

What I proposed (yes, Hirana is little old me) would increase tag availability substantially as tag collection is a by-product of FW plexing and giving pilots the choice by way of a button would allow for everyone not in the militias to gather them provided they are not attached at the hip to their standings.

The fact that the principal LP earners (high-sec runners) does not want to tank standings with one faction or another is irrelevant to the question of whether tags are dropping enough .. the tags ARE there, just not free-for-all lying on the ground there.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#25 - 2012-02-26 05:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Patri Andari
Not supported.

There exist 3 ways to get faction tags on a semi regular basis: Faction Warfare missions, Faction Warfare complexes and NPC nullsec. Any change to the drop rates would be a boost to high sec mission running and a nerf to FW and 0.0 mission running.

There are actual pilots who make a tidy sum from running those missions and complexes and selling the tags. I know this because I buy tags from them in their theaters of operation. I also take the risk of transporting them to empire.

Want more faction tags? Run FW missions, FW complexes, or 0.0 missions on a regular basis and accept the negative effects caused by that activity.

Edit: There is a fourth way: Level 5 missions (no one seems to collect the tags...at least they do not sell them locally)

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#26 - 2012-02-26 09:08:13 UTC
Do you not think that the tag requirements for all items are pretty ludicrous, especially since they were set way before FW and the like were twinkles in CCP's eyes - which makes it all the more ridiculous. Additionally, seeing as the distribution of anti-faction missions is mind-bogglingly stupid (anti-Amarr missions for Gallente, anyone?), something definitely has to be done, and forcing people to go out into low and null who simply don't want to leave high sec will accomplish nothing.

CCP seriously needs to look at this situation - it's not a matter of boosting mission running, it's a question of fixing the broken LP stores.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Plaude Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-02-26 20:34:01 UTC
mxzf wrote:
I'm not seeing much of an issue with this. I would suggest putting another two buttons next to the "Request Mission" button for the agent and have them be "Request anti-pirate mission" and "Request anti-faction mission", which would actually help both the missioners that care about their standings (no more 4h waiting period) and the missioners who want tags to sell (no more pirate missions with no tags). And there would still be the "Request Mission" giving out completely random missions for people who just don't care.

With any luck, and enough people running anti-faction missions for the tags, this could help to drive down tag prices (which I would see as a very good thing). As long as all three options remain a choice at all times, and you don't lock yourself into a certain set when you first talk to the agent, it sounds fine to me.

I support this idea. I don't know how many times I've been grinding missions for fun and ISK, only to suddenly receive an anti-Amarr mission (funny enough, it's always anti-Amarr missions. Never the other Empire-factions) and have to stop running missions for another 4 hours. It's really annoying when you're already hated by the Amarr, and actually want to improve standings with them by working for their "allies", until you get access to better Amarr-missions...

As for the tag-market, I don't know how that looks. I generally only work for SOE or buy Faction Ammo from other factions, because it's just too bothersome getting those stupid tags for the marginally better faction-modules.

New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of _**your **_choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#28 - 2012-02-27 08:31:26 UTC
Plaude Pollard wrote:
mxzf wrote:
I'm not seeing much of an issue with this. I would suggest putting another two buttons next to the "Request Mission" button for the agent and have them be "Request anti-pirate mission" and "Request anti-faction mission", which would actually help both the missioners that care about their standings (no more 4h waiting period) and the missioners who want tags to sell (no more pirate missions with no tags). And there would still be the "Request Mission" giving out completely random missions for people who just don't care.

With any luck, and enough people running anti-faction missions for the tags, this could help to drive down tag prices (which I would see as a very good thing). As long as all three options remain a choice at all times, and you don't lock yourself into a certain set when you first talk to the agent, it sounds fine to me.

I support this idea. I don't know how many times I've been grinding missions for fun and ISK, only to suddenly receive an anti-Amarr mission (funny enough, it's always anti-Amarr missions. Never the other Empire-factions) and have to stop running missions for another 4 hours. It's really annoying when you're already hated by the Amarr, and actually want to improve standings with them by working for their "allies", until you get access to better Amarr-missions...

As for the tag-market, I don't know how that looks. I generally only work for SOE or buy Faction Ammo from other factions, because it's just too bothersome getting those stupid tags for the marginally better faction-modules.




If you support that, like the OP captain - the ideas are the same Big smileBlink

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#29 - 2012-03-11 09:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bumblefck
Back to the top - some good ideas here, let's discuss this some more! - OP updated with mxzf's suggestion

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Diamaht Nevain
Eldritch Union
#30 - 2012-03-11 18:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Diamaht Nevain
I like this idea. It would almost have to be a change in the way mission are distributed, changing tag requirements still wouldn't address the lack of tags on the market.

Still, I think people tend to avoid tag missions in general because they don't want to be restricted to one part of high sec. Not sure how to solve that issue.

One thing they may want to consider is reducing or even eliminating the faction hits with these missions. They seem like a needless restriction and are the reason you can't find tags on the market. They would be fine if we had an economy that was spread even, but we don't. A Gallente mission runner needs Jita a lot more than a Caldari mission runner needs Dodixie.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#31 - 2012-03-11 18:42:59 UTC
Ah, see there, there's the thing - there are people (probably not many!) like myself, who would exclusively run anti-faction missions if i) the option was offered to us and ii) the distribution of the missions (namely, a Gallente agent offering anti-Caldari missions and vice versa. If these conditions were changed, the tags would flow...true there would be some tag value deflation with increased availability, but of course not everyone will want to run the anti-empire missions :)

Don't forget that this proposal, Diamaht, is exlcusively concerned with increasing the tag supply via the choice of exclusive anti-faction missions; it's not about looking at the tag requirements in the LP stores (as the increase tag supply will rectify the disproportionate requirements).

Thanks for your support!

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#32 - 2012-03-12 13:40:17 UTC
Diamaht Nevain wrote:
One thing they may want to consider is reducing or even eliminating the faction hits with these missions. They seem like a needless restriction and are the reason you can't find tags on the market. They would be fine if we had an economy that was spread even, but we don't. A Gallente mission runner needs Jita a lot more than a Caldari mission runner needs Dodixie.


I think that faction hits could be balanced a bit, using that as a way to adjust the supply of tags if this was implemented, but I think the faction hits are good to have because it gives you a tradeoff. Bear in mind that you really can buy pretty much anything in any of the four major trade hubs, though some stuff is slightly marked up (I haven't been to Jita in months myself). And everyone does have three slots on their account, tossing together a Jita alt doesn't take much effort.

I think that this proposal would go a long way towards making the tag market actually work well, due to people being able to choose to go for anti-faction missions, and would love to see it implemented. The faction hits can be re-balanced after the market stabilizes if it turns out there's too much/too little change in the tag market.
Zi'Boo
Zi'Corp
#33 - 2012-03-13 05:18:31 UTC
I'd rather see something opposite implemented - Replace all bounties with tags and then diversify the tags required by LP stores a bit (so it's not only the other faction tags, but also pirate ones).

This would have the same effect on LP stores, as now you'd have an abundance of tags, however it would make 0.0 rating a bit harder, where it wouldn't just be - kill rats receive isk, but you'd need to transport all your tags to empire as well to sell them.

It would also make marauders more desirable, as you could get your tags while running missions / ratting, would make ninja salvagers (or rather ninja looters) much more common.

Suicide gankers would have more targets.

You could still convert those tags into isk by selling them at a concord or faction navy station, but it would be a bit more complicated.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#34 - 2012-03-13 08:29:56 UTC
I think you're talking about a rather more radical, revolutionary overhaul of the LP/tags system than the evolutionary model presented here. I think it is quite important to preserve rat bounties (whether at their present levels, who knows...) because, as we know, diversity is fun!

In a way, too, I think it would greatly overcomplicate things - imagine, after a couple of months of missioning and hoarding, you look in your hangar and are faced with dozens and dozens of different types of tag, and you think "WTF". I believe that the current system holds the basis for a new, workable tags system - give the pilot the choice whether to fly anti-pirate or anti-faction missions exclusively (or the current random system, for those who truly don't care). You must also remember that the distribution of anti-faction missions for ALL factions is completely borked too, by the way...

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-03-13 11:25:55 UTC
If you want to run anti-faction missions and get tags, you can take them as they come in highsec, move to lowsec and do FW missions/plexes or L5s, or move to nullsec and do pirate missions. There's plenty of options for amassing as many tags as you could possibly want.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#36 - 2012-03-13 20:37:20 UTC
As a former mission runner, some of the tag requirements for certain items are ridiculous.

You'd find modules that require 400 tags of one type of tag, additional 200 of another, and finally another 100.

Making the cost of the modules astronomically higher than variants you can get from pirates that work just as well and are much cheaper.

There is a reason why you never see imperial navy medium energy neutralizers and some others on the contract. Its just ridiculous to get the amount of tags needed to get them.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#37 - 2012-03-14 12:19:51 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
If you want to run anti-faction missions and get tags, you can take them as they come in highsec, move to lowsec and do FW missions/plexes or L5s, or move to nullsec and do pirate missions. There's plenty of options for amassing as many tags as you could possibly want.




No. There is a fundamental imbalance in the distribution of tags AND the tag requirements in the LP store to effectively render most of the items in there totally unobtainable. It's not simply a matter of 'Go and run FW/Lvl 5 missions'

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#38 - 2012-03-17 12:29:56 UTC
Hullo all,

Bumble has gone on holiday for a couple of months and has asked me to inform you that I will be monitoring this thread and responding to any questions/ideas. Thanks! :)
Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#39 - 2012-03-20 19:15:35 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
As a former mission runner, some of the tag requirements for certain items are ridiculous.

You'd find modules that require 400 tags of one type of tag, additional 200 of another, and finally another 100.

Making the cost of the modules astronomically higher than variants you can get from pirates that work just as well and are much cheaper.

There is a reason why you never see imperial navy medium energy neutralizers and some others on the contract. Its just ridiculous to get the amount of tags needed to get them.



I believe that I made some Small/Medium Ammatar Neuts at one point and even thought (in my little head) that I made a profit, but most likely I was deluding myself lol :)

As funny as that is, though, it's just sad that some of the frigate-sized items are literally unobtainable due to the costs involved. You're very often better off buying a faction or even deadspace item for the cost of the tags to get that Small Federation Navy Armour Repairer, or w/e.

This is a sad sad state of affairs - please fix it, CCP!
Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#40 - 2012-04-11 11:51:01 UTC
Back to the top - fix the LP stores, fix EVE! :)