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Discussion Thread: CSM Statement regarding CCP refocusing

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Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-09-23 17:47:09 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
In short, you have as much right to tell CCP management how to do their job as I have to tell you to do yours.

Wow you're dumb. CCP formed the CSM to provide them with feedback and guidance on future development of the game.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2011-09-23 18:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Cearain wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
If I have said it once I have said it a thousand time, neither the CSM nor the player base has the right nor the proper information to try to tell CCP how to macromanage their company.

You can tell CCP what you would like to see in game all you want. Have fun with it.

People get really upset at hearing this for some reason, I suppose passion for the game. So tell them what you want in game. Vehemently. Make a thread with a quarter million likes.

But as soon as you tell them how to do it, you are crossing the line.

I.E. let developers develop. Tell them what you want to see developed. As long as its not gold ammo or bypasses industry, I could give 2 *****. Let the managers manage. If you can manage better than them, become one.


I don't want them to continue to assign all of their devs to things other than eve. If they continue to do that they will continue to put out crap expansions and the game will suffer. I am perfectly within my rights to say this.

Why would you even suggest people do not have a *right* to say this?


You don't know what devs or employees were hired for for what jobs. You dont know what resources were allocated to what tasks and in what timeframe.

In short, you have as much right to tell CCP management how to do their job as I have to tell you to do yours.



Yes I do know where the resources have been allocated. They gave a dev blog about it and an 18 month timeframe 2 years ago. In the last summit minutes they said they wouldn't be making changes to it. Get a clue.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#43 - 2011-09-23 18:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
double post

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2011-09-23 18:04:19 UTC
I agree with almost everything in the CSM statement but not the part about focusing on the ridiculous "crowdsourcing" initiative. A tiny, tiny fraction of players even bothered with the ******** method of collecting votes and it was gamed by the Eve University people. "Docking games" is not something most of the Eve community wants to see prioritized for dev time.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-09-23 18:10:52 UTC
Ladie Scarlet wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
In short, you have as much right to tell CCP management how to do their job as I have to tell you to do yours.

Wow you're dumb. CCP formed the CSM to provide them with feedback and guidance on future development of the game.


If I am dumb, your stupidity is legendary. I already agreed to what you said. Development of the game, not the management of CCP.

Those are 2 things that are unambiguously not the same thing. ******* derp.

Quote:



Yes I do know where the resources have been allocated. They gave a dev blog about it and an 18 month timeframe 2 years ago. In the last summit minutes they said they wouldn't be making changes to it. Get a clue.


How many of their employees are developers?
When were they hired?
How many of those developers were hired to work on Eve?
How many of those developers are working on Eve?
How much money is allocated to the development of Eve?

Yeah, you know the pertinent information.
Fergus Runkle
Truth and Reconciliation Council
#46 - 2011-09-23 18:11:35 UTC
I'm a bit concerned that in CCP's world the phrase "CCP should strongly favor iteration of existing game content over shiny new content." Can be taken to mean that they can carry on messing around with the captains closet, they seem to categorise Incarna as been an equal part of Eve Online these days.

I would much rather that phrase be written as "existing Flying In Space content", it seems rather sad that what we the players call Eve Online, CCP call Flying In Space.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2011-09-23 18:15:30 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
If I am dumb, your stupidity is legendary. I already agreed to what you said. Development of the game, not the management of CCP.

Those are 2 things that are unambiguously not the same thing. ******* derp.

I see. So in your fantasy world the CCP developers work independently of CCP management. That makes perfect sense.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ezurae
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-09-23 18:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezurae
Solstice Project wrote:
Watch this ___________________ .


The reason for your TWO CSM-thread is way beyond me,
and i actually do not care about you, so i'll never ever give you a like.

I totally agree with red-hotlips.

This feels really, really unnecessary,
because we already have a statement from CCP,
you guys actually already have plenty of support AND YOU KNOW IT,
so this now feels more like HARVESTING than anything else.

There are people that believe you are doing good work
and i can only agree with them to some point, maybe,
but on the other hand - in my mind - the abbreviation actually means...

**** Sucking Morons.

There, you had my attention.
Now get back to work and stop whoring "likes".


this thread (CSM Statement) wasnt really needed or at least shouldnt have been necessary. Hell if it WAS necessary then the CSM did something terribly wrong the last months.
although i agree with some things, i am not going to +1 to that senseless thread. the wannabe-politician-campaign really is getting annoying...


EMPstrike wrote:
Before Incarna's release there were tons of people posting complaining how CCP promised Walking in Stations for years but never delivered. Which to me showed they really want it.

I have a theory that most people only post in dev threads when they have something to complain about, as the area of discussion on specific issues always change when something is changed or released, and the input is by a vast majority, always negative.

EDIT: As a side note and example, ive been a memebr here since 2006, and this is the first day ive used the forums to voice opinions.

Exactly that, WiS is something everyone here wanted and still wants to see. And a lot of people ingame are pretty happy with what it is, they just dont have a reason to post in the forums.

I like Incarna and WiS, i agree some FiS stuff really needs fixing and we also need new FiS stuff but they should finish one thing and then go to fix other stuff or add new stuff. Everyone is saying CCP always introduced features and would have stopped finishing them right after deployment. Right now everyone here is demanding they do exactly that again (and btw forum whores have asked that after every expansion, so blame yourself for having unfinished stuff) and i bet you you guys will complain in 2 years that WiS wasnt finished. This comes from a vet who isnt bitter about the game but who is bitter about the forum community the last weeks. I've been playing since Beta and right now the forum whining is just getting ridiculous. The biggest reason is that so many ppl fell for the politician like campaigns the CSM has pulled of and because of that actually believe the game would be bad. Hell this game developed so much since the start, no other company, which isnt the size of blizzard, could have managed to achieve what CCP did.

Let them do their ******* job and dont waste their time with bullshit whines "you promised a dev blog this week" (which btw the CSM promised and not CCP), "you always stop developing stuff after release, so stop developing incarna now its released and do something else". its just ridiculous...
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-09-23 18:23:33 UTC
Ladie Scarlet wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
If I am dumb, your stupidity is legendary. I already agreed to what you said. Development of the game, not the management of CCP.

Those are 2 things that are unambiguously not the same thing. ******* derp.

I see. So in your fantasy world the CCP developers work independently of CCP management. That makes perfect sense.

Right. the developers manage the company, obviously.
Cypermethren
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2011-09-23 18:49:07 UTC
I am waiting to see if CCP can stand true to their word.


And not just do a two patch stint then go back to the same ways that bought them to this incarna-mess in the first place.


Thankyou CCP for teaching me, Watch what you DO, not what you SAY! :)
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2011-09-23 18:54:37 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Right. the developers manage the company, obviously.

I wish I worked for a company where the management didn't tell me what to do. Are you really this stupid?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Ripard Teg
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#52 - 2011-09-23 18:59:29 UTC
There are two ways to look at the devblog, from the optimist's view or the alarmist's view.

I don't think CCP itself has decided what they want to do yet, but it's pretty clear that much of the CSM shares the alarmist's view. And they obviously have more information than I do. Blink

The real question we're dancing around here is that now that CCP has decided to focus on flying-in-space, what does that mean? If we're very fortunate, CCP will write down 15 or 20 possibilities and ask for player feedback on each one. If we're very unfortunate, CCP will write down 15 or 20 possibilities... then decide themselves what they want to do without involving the community.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#53 - 2011-09-23 19:01:49 UTC
Monger Man wrote:

I hate and take offense to the lazy statement. I'm anything but lazy with dscan. And any time anyone defends the way it works either with you're lazy, or the servers simply cannot handle the traffic is simply defending a system because they are used to the way it works. There must be a way to have the dscan update, keep some skill involved in using it, but remove the horrendous amount of clicking it requires. And don't defend it with "server load", I'm sure the developers can figure something out. They have the overview for gods sake, yes I know thats "on grid". But if you had to press a button to update overview for the last upteen years you'd probably defend that as well with "it takes skillz".


Sorry if it offended you, IMO having a pet peeve about such a feature to the point of not understanding why it's like that and can't be changed into something 'automatic' can only be classified as lazyness.

About comparing overview with dscan you simply can't, overview is done simply spamming your game client with everything on grid, while dscan can't work like that because you have angle and distance as a filter, I would got quite technical in the subject but you don't seem to be educated enough to realise the implications of implementing such a feature server and network wide in order to prevent exploitation in the client side, mind you I'm not trying to insult you or anything, you'll just have to trust me as if it would be a dev telling you this exactly the same way, I just happen to work in the same business and know first hand what implications your little feature request would impact on the whole scheme of things.
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#54 - 2011-09-23 19:07:10 UTC
Ladie Scarlet wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Right. the developers manage the company, obviously.

I wish I worked for a company where the management didn't tell me what to do. Are you really this stupid?


Are you?

Your customers do not dictate to your manager how you should do your job, nor anyone else. They dictate the parameters of what they desire in the product or service your company provides.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#55 - 2011-09-23 19:14:58 UTC
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
Ladie Scarlet wrote:
AFKCloaked AltSpy wrote:
In short, you have as much right to tell CCP management how to do their job as I have to tell you to do yours.

Wow you're dumb. CCP formed the CSM to provide them with feedback and guidance on future development of the game.


If I am dumb, your stupidity is legendary. I already agreed to what you said. Development of the game, not the management of CCP.

Those are 2 things that are unambiguously not the same thing. ******* derp.

Quote:



Yes I do know where the resources have been allocated. They gave a dev blog about it and an 18 month timeframe 2 years ago. In the last summit minutes they said they wouldn't be making changes to it. Get a clue.


How many of their employees are developers?
When were they hired?
How many of those developers were hired to work on Eve?
How many of those developers are working on Eve?
How much money is allocated to the development of Eve?

Yeah, you know the pertinent information.


You obviously haven't read the information ccp provided to us as players in dev blogs and csm minutes.

Read the dev blog it was by ccp zulu in july 2010. (so it was actually just a bit over a year ago) He tells you how many devs are working on which parts of eve. It doesn't matter when the individual devs were hired. Again get a clue.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#56 - 2011-09-23 19:19:24 UTC
Too little, too late.

While I'd love to see iterations from A to Z, the 'needs' of CCP as a company must be allowed room for Eve to survive in the long run. This includes the exploratory stints into alternate revenue sources and laying the groundwork for Dust and WoD.

The main problem that they need to address is their habit of launching grand changes, fixing bugs and then leaving it to simmer for 2-3 years .. that is way too long. It took them years to allocate funds to have a permanent 'balance ombudsman' (so new as to still be an unknown with no changes under his belt), something that should have been in place on day one ..

They were so damn proud of their mission tools that theoretically allows them to crank out Arcs and other goodies in short order, how many Arcs do we have again?
They were so damn proud of their changes to structure that allows them to push small changes in rapid succession, how many times has that been used (fixing their own brand-new bugs does not count!)?

In short: I cannot support the proclamation as it is much too FiS biased.
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-09-23 19:20:34 UTC
If likes are a fluff feature that doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter if Trebor gets a bazillion likes, the point is to get the point across to CCP.

I agree with the statement, but I would just like to add the caveat that I don't think WiS is a complete waste of time and should be abandoned or anything like that. I want it, I like it, I want more of it, and I don't see why a 600-person company shouldn't be able to do it all - both "fix" FiS and carry on iterating on WiS.

It's not my company, but my advice would be to shift more resources onto the things that are making money, and take some away from things that aren't making money. I understand that they must be chomping at the bit to do new games, they're creative people, but so long as EVE is the cash cow, they need to see it's kept comfy and has nice green grass to eat. Then by all means, go for it, let's have the new games, and the best of luck.

If recent events have shown anything, it's merely that, contrary to what the subtext of Hilmar's leaked email suggests, they cannot take their playerbase for granted. Love of the game, immersion in the game, hangs on a thread of long-term trust.

If CCP understand that, then evefrything should be copacetic.
Takashi Kaeda
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2011-09-23 19:20:58 UTC
Ladie Scarlet wrote:
...but not the part about focusing on the ridiculous "crowdsourcing" initiative. A tiny, tiny fraction of players even bothered with the ******** method of collecting votes and it was gamed by the Eve University people. "Docking games" is not something most of the Eve community wants to see prioritized for dev time.


Not empty quoting. Yes to iteration of existing FiS content, no the crowdsourcing farce.
Swooshie
USA Canada Private Corp
#59 - 2011-09-23 19:26:47 UTC
I few weeks ago, I expressed the idea that the day CCP would make a radical move away from it's current line of action would possibly mean a panic reaction and point to potential risks for the game. Of course, I get somewhat of an uneasy feeling when I read the short, seemingly rushed, statementfrom CCP about the refocus and the scale of it.

This sounds to me like bleeding management and I would pretty much guess that, more than just the vocalization of the community, actions pose themselves as the motivation behind the move; I think the numbers have spoken.

I believe it is obvious that it will not be possible for them [CCP] to just talk and not follow up with actions. This might be a crucial time for the future of this game, however and as such, it could be wiser to tone down a little on the complaints and keep an eye on what is coming.

It is generally a dangerous endeavor to open up the doors wide open to customers suggestions as it tends to create a level of expectations that becomes rapidly "un-meetable". I suspect that at least some of the rationale behind the creation of the CSM was to funnel down this stream and prevent feedback listening to turn into the proverbial Pandora's box.

In short, the message is rather clear and the water is quite hot and it might be better to let CCP maneuvering room to set this great game back on course.

"It is when I think about meaning that I lose what I meant to say."     -Swooshie
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2011-09-23 19:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbelo Valentinian
Swooshie wrote:

In short, the message is rather clear and the water is quite hot and it might be better to let CCP maneuvering room to set this great game back on course.


Hear hear! From this point, I am now not going to tolerate any more churlish griping on the forums. (Of course reasoned criticism is always absolutely welcome, I'm talking about the sheerly grumpy stuff.)

If CCP's new-leaf turning doesn't pan out, and we haven't seen some solid progress by Winter, then churlish griping may resume.

But for now, let's give them a chance to bind their words with their deeds, and let them feel our love and support to make this ******* FANTASTIC game even better.