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New dev blog: Price Indices – February 2012

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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
#41 - 2012-03-16 20:21:15 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
If considerably less than 25% of the population is running incursions, then this is obviously broken.

Stating anything to the contrary is obviously and utterly laughable.


So if considerably less than 25% of the population is farming wormholes, then, wormholes are obviously more broken than incursions. Since Blue Lewt contributed about 10.4T isk in Feb compared to the 8.6T from incursions (not just highsec incursions).

From twitter on 29th Feb:
John Turbefield ‏ @CCP_Diagoras
Locations of active chars with more than 5m SP just after midnight: High Sec 66.00%, Low sec 7.37%, Null sec 20.73%, Wormhole Space 5.89%

Fear God and Thread Nought
Murashu
Dead and Delirious
Brotherhood of Spacers
#42 - 2012-03-16 20:26:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Murashu
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
If considerably less than 25% of the population is running incursions, then this is obviously broken.

Stating anything to the contrary is obviously and utterly laughable.


So if considerably less than 25% of the population is farming wormholes, then, wormholes are obviously more broken than incursions. Since Blue Lewt contributed about 10.4T isk in Feb compared to the 8.6T from incursions (not just highsec incursions).

I think you are talking apples to oranges if you compare the continuous risk of being killed by other players in wormhole space and the logistics involved in moving blue loot back to empire to sell to the safety of running highsec incursions and getting instant bounty rewards.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#43 - 2012-03-16 20:29:34 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
If considerably less than 25% of the population is running incursions, then this is obviously broken.

Stating anything to the contrary is obviously and utterly laughable.


So if considerably less than 25% of the population is farming wormholes, then, wormholes are obviously more broken than incursions. Since Blue Lewt contributed about 10.4T isk in Feb compared to the 8.6T from incursions (not just highsec incursions).

From twitter on 29th Feb:
John Turbefield ‏ @CCP_Diagoras
Locations of active chars with more than 5m SP just after midnight: High Sec 66.00%, Low sec 7.37%, Null sec 20.73%, Wormhole Space 5.89%


I guess that answers your question then.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Aineko Macx
#44 - 2012-03-16 20:48:53 UTC
Since CCP seems unwilling to consider dynamic faucets, we'll have to live with occasional nerfs (and unintended buffs)...

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Zircon Dasher
#45 - 2012-03-16 21:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Murashu wrote:
I think you are talking apples to oranges if you compare the continuous risk of being killed by other players in wormhole space and the logistics involved in moving blue loot back to empire to sell to the safety of running highsec incursions and getting instant bounty rewards.


A true evaluation of risk does not stop at the mere possibility of loss. It calculates the probability, the extent of damages, etc.
If the probability of loss is low, due to intel or a lack of population to name a few examples, then there is less overall risk.

In any event, if one is concerned about inflation stemming from money supply these things do not mean much. One should be much more concerned about the overall influx/sink of isk from various activites. I, personally, am glad that CCP is looking at the broad range of faucets if they are truely concerned about inflation from ISK. So far no CCP employee has actually said that they are, but..... guess we have to wait till fanfest.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2012-03-16 21:09:56 UTC
The Snowman wrote:
FFUuuuuuuuuuuu people who claim incursions cause inflation hahaha....

In the end it was actually 0.0 carebears running anomolies that was causing inflation.
Nope.
MacLuven
EL Bernays School of Strategic Communication
#47 - 2012-03-16 21:24:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
It seems like he said that ISK that is just made but sits there isn't all that terribly interesting to the economy. What matters is the ISK that's actually used - which is why he went into such laboring over the velocity. Basically: the more people use their accumulated wealth, the higher the price inflation is going to go.


Enough also has to be spent to alter the balance in supply and demand and lower the inventory of the products being purchased that there's upward pressure on the price of the product (and it's components' cost). Just spending it isn't enough.

Here are the key sentences from the DevBlog for other readers who may not have been quite following what you were getting at:

CCPRecurve wrote:
It‘s also important to note that money supply and the velocity of money are far from being the only things that affect inflation. Supply side changes can have a big impact on prices.


The big things that keep us from jumping off the side of Inflation Mountain are, 1) we have a single currency in a common market, 2) we have a tremendous capacity in our manufacturing base, 3) people have gobs of inventory. This makes our economy extremely resilient to the influx of money supply and it's influence on inflation.

Quote:
I've been doing some thinking, and it seems to me that a large part of the recent price inflation may be the result of people getting back into the market after resubbing in Crucible after ragequitting in Incarna. The thing about it is that that I would normally expect that to be a temporary price increase, but the amount of available currency may mean that it is more permanent ... its not like anyone has any trouble paying for stuff as it is.


We already know the game population went from 340k in December to 352.5 in March (MMOData.net). So, yes, it's fair to say that a bunch of those 12,500 people went shopping.

Prices are stubborn. I would suggest there are three reasons for this, 1) market manipulators are able to keep a prices up for a spell, 2) suppliers take time to get enough inventory back into the market to drown out the effects of the price manipulators, 3) the CPI is sticky up to tech 2 prices -- most people don't melt down tech2 (and tech3 for that matter) mods and ships to recover components for sale in the market. So the more the CPI price is determined by Tech2 and tech3, the stickier it will be.

Tech1, however, goes up and down with the mineral market like a girl ... err ... like a girl on a pogo stick.
Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#48 - 2012-03-16 21:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nair Alderau
Sentient Blade wrote:


Inflation is positive if it's kept a certain rate; if it goes too low then the market stalls as people wait for products to become cheaper, hence things don't sell, people don't get paid, bad times.


That (your "too low" inflation) is a description of the effects of deflation, which is indeed very bad.

No risk of that right now. The rest of your post is correct, but I dont think we are even close to hyper-inflation right now.

I am not very fond of the current inflation rates, but its still on the managable side.
Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#49 - 2012-03-16 21:47:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nair Alderau
Gilbaron wrote:
To what extend can those increased prices be explained by the following factors:


Increased demand for maelstrom, Drakes, 1400mm guns, heavy missile launchers and maybe abbadons, lazers and tier 3 battlecruisers?

Plex prices?

Zydrine speculation?


None of the above. Which is quite easy to prove.

The first group is downright ... strange. Prices for T1 and T2 items are set by raw material prices, not demand (or only for a very short time period).
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-03-16 21:57:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The Snowman wrote:
FFUuuuuuuuuuuu people who claim incursions cause inflation hahaha....

In the end it was actually 0.0 carebears running anomolies that was causing inflation.
Nope.



Right on! Stick with your assertion no matter what! What does CCP know anyway! Lol
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-03-16 22:07:05 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Inflation is positive if it's kept a certain rate; if it goes too low then the market stalls as people wait for products to become cheaper, hence things don't sell, people don't get paid, bad times.

This is an economic fallacy, and history doesn't bear this out. Bad news for you, Keynes is dead.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-03-16 22:08:18 UTC
Liberty Eternal wrote:
No, there are two types of inflation. One is monetary inflation, where the amount of money [isk] increases. The other is price inflation, where the price of goods increases.

Finally an intelligent post.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Random Womble
Emo Rangers
#53 - 2012-03-16 22:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Random Womble
I would be interested to know what the average per POS export cost of PI goods for fuelling POSs is verses the old per POS cost when PI goods were sold on the market by NPCs. Thereby seeing if the POS based isk sink has increased or decreased following the introduction of PI.

However of concern would be that now with player owned customs offices there is the potential for the isk sink aspect to disappear all together and it certainly is likely to diminish to a very small sum.

I meant to say while its been a while since i did incursions so correct me if im wrong but do incursion rats also not have bounties so a small proportion of the rat bounties can surely be tacked effectively on the incursion sum and removed from the bounties one.
Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#54 - 2012-03-16 23:32:38 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Inflation is positive if it's kept a certain rate; if it goes too low then the market stalls as people wait for products to become cheaper, hence things don't sell, people don't get paid, bad times.

This is an economic fallacy, and history doesn't bear this out. Bad news for you, Keynes is dead.


Got your degree in Chicago? *cough*
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2012-03-16 23:37:34 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Right on! Stick with your assertion no matter what! What does CCP know anyway! Lol
They know a fair bit, and they're certainly not claiming what The Snowman says…

No, incursions most certainly cause inflation.
Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#56 - 2012-03-16 23:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nair Alderau
Tippia wrote:
Jada Maroo wrote:
Right on! Stick with your assertion no matter what! What does CCP know anyway! Lol
They know a fair bit, and they're certainly not claiming what The Snowman says…

No, incursions most certainly cause inflation.


Let's say they were a contributing factor. Some people forget that the Concord LP handed out is actually an ISK sink. I've never seen that number separated from the other LP store sinks, though, so I won't comment on how much it does actually dampen the ISK payout of incursions. Somebody got numbers? (or rough approximations?)

I actually fear the drone region change a tad more now - we don't need more ISK in the system, or at least not much. It's still under control, but I wouldn't mind lowering the ISK rewards of incursions and bumping the LP some.
glowreef1
Dark Sacred Knights
#57 - 2012-03-17 00:07:43 UTC
And then there are things like this going on. This must also be taken into account.
Evenews Market manipulation
Made my head spin
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#58 - 2012-03-17 00:11:25 UTC
Nair Alderau wrote:
Let's say they were a contributing factor. Some people forget that the Concord LP handed out is actually an ISK sink. I've never seen that number separated from the other LP store sinks, though, so I won't comment on how much it does actually dampen the ISK payout of incursions. Somebody got numbers? (or rough approximations?)


If all LP earned incursions was sunk into the CONCORD LP store, about 80% or so of the ISK rewards would be sunk. The catch is that Incursion ISK flows so freely that it is easier for many people to run another site rather than spend the time travelling to the LP store, picking items up, transporting them to a market hub and listing items for sale.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2012-03-17 00:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nair Alderau wrote:
Let's say they were a contributing factor. Some people forget that the Concord LP handed out is actually an ISK sink. I've never seen that number separated from the other LP store sinks, though, so I won't comment on how much it does actually dampen the ISK payout of incursions. Somebody got numbers? (or rough approximations?)
Diagoras posted some numbers on the topic a month ago.

During that day, the LP store sunk some 180bn ISK, which I would translate into roughly 200 million LP being cashed in. Incursions paid out a mere 4.7 million LP during that day.

For as long as any numbers on the topic have been released, the rewards and time bonuses of missions have pretty much completely been eaten up by the LP store, leaving only the mission bounties as a net faucet. With Incursions, this is not nearly the case, most likely for the reasons Mara Rinn mention. This is the complete opposite of missions, where at the higher end, mission-running becomes almost entirely LP-based.
CCP Dr.EyjoG
C C P
C C P Alliance
#60 - 2012-03-17 00:25:34 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
so, did the money supply through bounties change? If not, it does not realy matter if its the largest piece of the pie or not, incursions or something else can still be the cause for the inflation.


Yes, all NPC bounties are a faucet for the EVE economy. All NPC paid rewards are as well, so Incursions do contribute to the problem but the picture is much bigger and is not solve by just "Nerf Incursions".