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A Hamrite Journey (formerly: Amarr for the Glory of God)
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#261 - 2012-03-16 20:05:16 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

What I am concerned about with your corporation is that it will not result in any net positive benefit over a philanthropy minded capsuleer acting on their own, and this is the question you have so far been unable to answer. Why are you better than the control case?


NUVOS has been responsible for the liberation of over two million slaves. Ask those two million+ if they feel a "net positive benefit." Who are you to question my motives and exalt your own? This is irony, you say that you "care deeply." That, Mr. is a motive or an internal feeling that can't be judged, yet you believe that you are in a position to judge me when I claim to care. Isn't that hypocritical? You ask me why am I better... and then turn and foist your own action as better. Isn't that hypocritical? Look in the mirror before you question my motives again.


I want to know what it is you have done, Captain Numenor. I gave my example so you could give one of your own.

I congratulate you on your accomplishments! 2 million people is an impressive number to save, according to your definition of saving.

Now, please tell me how your corporation is more functional than you acting on your own? I am interested in the functional nature of it, and in quantitative evidence, rather than qualitative.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#262 - 2012-03-16 20:25:26 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

In short, your corporation does not offer security. It does not offer any guarantees that a lone capsuleer cannot seize for themselves. It is a foolish endeavor, and will ultimately be ground under the boot of either an opposing philosophy, or general capsuleer boredom and cruelty.


So, basically, your argument is that they don't offer a 'perfect' solution? Who does? Certainly not a 'lone capsuleer', who is as likely as not to just run when the money dries up. Yeah, maybe they'll get stomped by someone, but in the meantime, they're actually making a difference in the lives of the people they rescue.

Nobody offers a 'perfect solution', Mr. Thessalonia, but at least the Disciples offer a solution. Which -- if it doesn't involve a high-paying contract -- is more than I see from most 'lone capsuleers'.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#263 - 2012-03-16 20:34:56 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

In short, your corporation does not offer security. It does not offer any guarantees that a lone capsuleer cannot seize for themselves. It is a foolish endeavor, and will ultimately be ground under the boot of either an opposing philosophy, or general capsuleer boredom and cruelty.


So, basically, your argument is that they don't offer a 'perfect' solution? Who does? Certainly not a 'lone capsuleer', who is as likely as not to just run when the money dries up. Yeah, maybe they'll get stomped by someone, but in the meantime, they're actually making a difference in the lives of the people they rescue.

Nobody offers a 'perfect solution', Mr. Thessalonia, but at least the Disciples offer a solution. Which -- if it doesn't involve a high-paying contract -- is more than I see from most 'lone capsuleers'.


A fallacy: The lone capsuleer is not the philanthopy minded capsuleer.

An error: I am not complaining about what he is trying to do. My issue is to understand how it is better than the control case. That is, what services does this corporation offer beyond that available to the philanthropy minded capsuleer acting alone.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#264 - 2012-03-16 21:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Vitalia
Edaine Numenor wrote:

NUVOS has been responsible for the liberation of over two million slaves.



*Golf Clap*

Edaine Numenor wrote:

...Look in the mirror before you question my motives again.


That almost sounded like a threat!

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#265 - 2012-03-16 21:23:01 UTC
I think it's a little strange that I am being pilloried here for wanting a little accountability from a charity.

Oh, but wait, you aren't a charity, you are a middleman between a doner and a charity.
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#266 - 2012-03-16 21:50:29 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I think it's a little strange that I am being pilloried here for wanting a little accountability from a charity.

Oh, but wait, you aren't a charity, you are a middleman between a doner and a charity.


Two things. First, do I hear sniffling and tears? "sniff, sniff, I am being pilloried here! sniff sniff." Has Sansha softened you, Mr.? You are not being pilloried, really. I am disagreeing with you. Second, you need to adjust your chips. It was your example that was the pure qualitative without the quantitative. Show me the non-nation 8% increase citation from your non-nation reference. Right now all I have is what you say. Show me and I'll pat you on the back and you won't feel pilloried. And, what are you the middle man between, Mr. True Slave Foundations? Its right in your name. You are the middleman between freedom and Sansha slavery.

But, we are off the subject again. Mr. Cresthill is my concern, so stop distracting me. Mr. Cresthill, I'll stand by what I said. If you agree with Mr. T. then ignore my offer and/or join his opinion. For that matter apply to True slave foundations if that is what you believe in. You asked for suggestions; I have given you one.

What is your suggestion for Mr. Cresthill? Mr. T.?

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#267 - 2012-03-16 22:33:16 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I think it's a little strange that I am being pilloried here for wanting a little accountability from a charity.

Oh, but wait, you aren't a charity, you are a middleman between a doner and a charity.


Two things. First, do I hear sniffling and tears? "sniff, sniff, I am being pilloried here! sniff sniff." Has Sansha softened you, Mr.? You are not being pilloried, really. I am disagreeing with you. Second, you need to adjust your chips. It was your example that was the pure qualitative without the quantitative. Show me the non-nation 8% increase citation from your non-nation reference. Right now all I have is what you say. Show me and I'll pat you on the back and you won't feel pilloried. And, what are you the middle man between, Mr. True Slave Foundations? Its right in your name. You are the middleman between freedom and Sansha slavery.

But, we are off the subject again. Mr. Cresthill is my concern, so stop distracting me. Mr. Cresthill, I'll stand by what I said. If you agree with Mr. T. then ignore my offer and/or join his opinion. For that matter apply to True slave foundations if that is what you believe in. You asked for suggestions; I have given you one.

What is your suggestion for Mr. Cresthill? Mr. T.?


I can indeed forward you those documents. I encourage you to make use of them. Feeding 8% more people is a worthy goal. Please start a farm.

I never claimed to be a middle man. On the other hand, that is all that you are, in your corporation. You stand between the capsuleer and the charity, and I am simply asking you to provide a reason for why you are necessary in that capacity. There are two aspects to accountability. First, obviously, is accounting. The second, however, is that you need to show me, and everyone else, is that you provide a public good, or some service that the capsuleer cannot provide for themselves, or that they would find difficult or annoying to do otherwise. In this case, you lack the second.

As for Mr. Cresthill, he is free to do whatever he would like. Perhaps he could join a Matari organization if he wishes to use his skills as a combat pilot. Or he could start his own organization to follow his own goals.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#268 - 2012-03-16 22:37:27 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
My issue is to understand how it is better than the control case. That is, what services does this corporation offer beyond that available to the philanthropy minded capsuleer acting alone.


And mine is to wonder why that even matters. If the control case works, great! If employing the Disciples would be a more effective solution (as was true in my case, when they brough my mother home after sixteen years), then go for it.

I'd like to ask the inverse of your question: what does the philanthropy-minded capsuleer offer that the Disciples don't?

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#269 - 2012-03-17 00:22:12 UTC
Edaine Numenor is not a Disciple of Ston.
Theobar Cresthill
The Arzad Hamri Fellowship
#270 - 2012-03-17 02:28:22 UTC
Today I began working for the Sisters of Eve basically running cargo between their station on Fahruni and the Aliastra station in neighboring Ealur. These were level one missions and not much ISK was made, but the work was satisfying anyway.

I wish that Mr. Numenor and Mr. Thessalonia would stop bickering. Neither of you is making your point. It has become an issue of one personality against the other. Neither of you is hearing the other. I understand that process all to well. Sometimes arguments like this become way too enjoyable. Everyone wants to be right and the issues are lost.

Right now I am paying no taxes to Viziam because my missions don't earn enough. Eventually I will. Frankly, I am not comfortable being identified with a large corporation like Viziam. Are they using slave labor? Are they using slaves in their research? I don't know. And there is very little in the archives about them. That is strange.

Mr. Numenor, I will use my level one time to think about your offer, but I am not in a hurry. Your arguing in this thread did not cast you in a good light. You remind me too much of myself; wanting to be right. The same for Mr. Thessalonia. The back and forth accomplishes nothing. I would love to have you forward that Agricultural info to me. I will share it with many people. Some of those that I recently set free may want to farm. It could be good information for them. I'll watch for it in my com box.

I do like the idea that if I am going to be taxed to be able to choose where it goes. I am aware of no other corp that does that. If I try your offer out, Mr. Numenor, I will also hold you to your promise to give a Million ISK to the organization of my choice. I hope you meant that when you said it. I will hold you to the flame of accountability too. If I take your offer and you do not act in the integrity you claim, it will be spoken of right here. But that decision is not here yet. I need more time.

I also need time to account for things that will grow my awareness of loss. I will miss my family, my father and uncles and aunts. I will miss being able to go home to our beautiful farm surrounded my the sea. I will miss the smell of wheat harvest. I will miss the sound of the monastery choir. I will miss my aunt's cooking. The excitement of the moment will need to evolve into a commitment for the rest of my life to follow through in integrity.

I am breaking some old trusts and establishing some new trusts. This is a hard process.

"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)
Kentt Em'asep
Clone Red Creations
#271 - 2012-03-17 07:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kentt Em'asep
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
Today I began working for the Sisters of Eve basically running cargo between their station on Fahruni and the Aliastra station in neighboring Ealur. These were level one missions and not much ISK was made, but the work was satisfying anyway.

Good to hear you are doing well and have decided to do what you yourself have wanted to do. Time went by fast when I first read the beginning of this thread. But yes, the Sisters are an ok bunch, but I remember when some of their past jobs have been simple grudges and the like. Although most are very decent jobs.

Theobar Cresthill wrote:

I do like the idea that if I am going to be taxed to be able to choose where it goes. I am aware of no other corp that does that. If I try your offer out, Mr. Numenor, I will also hold you to your promise to give a Million ISK to the organization of my choice. I hope you meant that when you said it. I will hold you to the flame of accountability too. If I take your offer and you do not act in the integrity you claim, it will be spoken of right here. But that decision is not here yet. I need more time.

As a benefactor myself, I can say NUVOS is good at handling sums to where is needed. I was the one who had donated the Isk to save the 2 million prior to myself joining and it was a very good feeling.

Whichever path you decide to take, I hope you are happy with it. Safe travels out there.


Edited Portion:

I won't get between you two, but I can touch on this subject... I can help with the number 2. After that, I'll step off the soapbox. It's too high up for my tastes.

Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You stand between the capsuleer and the charity, and I am simply asking you to provide a reason for why you are necessary in that capacity. There are two aspects to accountability. First, obviously, is accounting. The second, however, is that you need to show me, and everyone else, is that you provide a public good, or some service that the capsuleer cannot provide for themselves, or that they would find difficult or annoying to do otherwise. In this case, you lack the second.

We establish offices on stations within certain systems and convert those portions into what Edaine likes to call Freedom Centers. If you wished to know how they operate, I believe that topic is on NUVOS's own thread... better keep the talks about those there then clog Mr Cresthill's thread here. Mentioned over there as well, I am alsol currently looking for a new location out in low and null sec space for a 4th (or is it 5th?) Freedom Center. Somewhere out of the way for those folks who wish to get away from all of New Eden.

Unless they are within a good and established corperation, capsuleers would be unable to provide these services themselves. Some may of course find that they with to use their isk for other things rather then the rental fees to keep the centers up. But within those, many many people live within. They either call them their home, or they use the resources there to find a new home... or return back to their families.

~"That's right. Today, tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that... from here on until forever, every time you look at my avatar - you'll see this scowl."~

~"Forever?"~

~"Yes - forever. It's what I do."~
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#272 - 2012-03-17 08:38:08 UTC
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
Today I began working for the Sisters of Eve



It is good to see you working for a much more useful cause than the 24th, prehaps we shall cross paths while you are working for the little hunters.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Theobar Cresthill
The Arzad Hamri Fellowship
#273 - 2012-03-17 13:36:59 UTC
Earlier this morning I was back in Arbaz cleaning out the proverbial locker at the Theology Council Station when I discovered that I had forgotten two slave who worked in the maintenance hangar for me.

I just forgot them. What kind of a jerk, "just forgets" a slave or two? They had been toiling along on my stuff the whole while and I just forgot that they were there, and I though I was such a "good" slave holder. I wonder if any other capsuleers have felt enough self spite, self hatred that they wanted to quite being a capsuleer.

Yesterday I had noted that in Fahruni where I have been working, there is a Disciples of Ston facility in a neighboring station. There are three Amarrian stations, one Gallentean station and the Sister station in this system. The Disciples of Ston have their facility in the Amarrian station. I told the slaves about the Disciples and that they were neerby. I asked if they wanted to go there and they agreed.

I sent Ston Momaki a com and he answered immediately. He said he was on rescue patrol not far away. He agreed to meet me in Fahruni at their office. He has not arrived yet. I used to hate these people. I once hatched a plan to try and trap them so I could legally destroy their ships. I never followed through thankfully and that is only because a colleague in the 24th IC cautioned me to be patient.

It is very strange to ask someone you once hated for help. I am and am not looking forward to meeting Ston.

"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#274 - 2012-03-17 13:47:50 UTC
Kentt Em'asep wrote:

Edited Portion:

I won't get between you two, but I can touch on this subject... I can help with the number 2. After that, I'll step off the soapbox. It's too high up for my tastes.

We establish offices on stations within certain systems and convert those portions into what Edaine likes to call Freedom Centers. If you wished to know how they operate, I believe that topic is on NUVOS's own thread... better keep the talks about those there then clog Mr Cresthill's thread here. Mentioned over there as well, I am alsol currently looking for a new location out in low and null sec space for a 4th (or is it 5th?) Freedom Center. Somewhere out of the way for those folks who wish to get away from all of New Eden.

Unless they are within a good and established corperation, capsuleers would be unable to provide these services themselves. Some may of course find that they with to use their isk for other things rather then the rental fees to keep the centers up. But within those, many many people live within. They either call them their home, or they use the resources there to find a new home... or return back to their families.


This is what I mean. You have overhead costs. This means that a portion of your income must be going to that overhead, by necessity. Are you a charity yourself, or are you more of a charity broker. In any case, the fact that you require people to join your corporation in order for the charity to function does not speak well.

I want to know how your corporation functions. Until then, I cannot support it, either with cash money, or praise. If I wanted to free slaves, I'd rather give my money directly to the organization of my choice without relying on Edaine Numenor as a middleman.
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#275 - 2012-03-17 15:22:29 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
In any case, the fact that you require people to join your corporation in order for the charity to function does not speak well.


Mr. Cresthill is right and our arguing is not accomplishing anything. I do want to clarify that you do not need to join the corporation to use its services. In the original forming, I explained several different ways to utilize the services of NUVOS. Joining the Corp is only one way. Those who join do so because they value contributing in that way.

Here is an example of a service that NUVOS provides free of charge to pilots: Let's say that Mr. Cresthill didn't want to join NUVOS but he wanted to purchase the freedom of some slaves Where he is working in Amarr and wanted to bring them into Minmatar space. He is a relatively new pilot and probably cannot pilot covert vessels. He could contact NUVOS and we would transport them out of Amarr space and into Minmatar space free of charge. We cover the "overhead" as you say, not from corporate ISK but from personal ISK. Or, perhaps a wealthy pilot want to free several hundred thousand slaves and have the Disciples of Ston take them in one of their centers. He or she could contact NUVOS and we would provide the transportation free of charge.

The corporation doesn't have overhead. Cost come out of my pocket and Kentt's pocket right now. We are happy to do that because we believe in what we are doing. I am sincerely trying to answer Mr. Thessalonia's questions and objections. If I have been combative in tone I am sorry.

So, let me review
1. Any costs are covered by myself or Kentt personally. P.S. Kentt is an amazingly generous man!
2. Joining the Corporation is not required to utilize our services.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.
Theobar Cresthill
The Arzad Hamri Fellowship
#276 - 2012-03-17 21:31:15 UTC
Airiken has 4 SOE agents that have work for me to do. This is encouraging. Now the hard part. A time of reckoning has arrived. I have been offered a mission with a 500,000 ISK payout. That means tax. I have tried in vain to find out anything about Viziam. They are an Amarrian National Corporation. I could not live with myself if I paid into their coffers and latter found out they were connected with slavery. Most likely they are, at least minimally. I have only a few days to decide on this mission and it looks like an important mission to me.

I am seriously considering giving NUVOS a try. I have an organization in mind already and if I join they will get a Million ISK if Mr. Numenor is true to his word. Apart from convincing evidence that they are dishonest, I may just have to wade in and find out for myself. If anybody has something they are not telling me, now is the time to say so. In other words, closing arguments please.

"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)
Theobar Cresthill
The Arzad Hamri Fellowship
#277 - 2012-03-18 03:12:29 UTC
What a busy day. I joined a new corp just in time to get war dec'd Blink Chin up and keep a stiff upper lip as they say. Of course, telling everyone where I am working wasn't the smartest thing. Oh well. Both Edaine and Kentt are good men and I think I want to be associated with them, war dec or no. Edaine paid the million ISK to Teraa Matar, just like i asked him to. 10% of all my taxable mission earnings will now go to support the efforts of the Teraa Matar.

I accepted a level one security mission today from the Sisters and was wondering why the pay was so good. It didn't take long to figure it out. Wow, at one point my destroyer was on fire and we barely warped out in time. I finished the mission.

I feel that God has sent the spirits to heal my conscience. I feel grateful.

"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#278 - 2012-03-18 09:27:56 UTC
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
Edaine paid the million ISK to Teraa Matar, just like i asked him to. 10% of all my taxable mission earnings will now go to support the efforts of the Teraa Matar.


Thank you for publicly admitting that you are providing material aid to the enemies of Amarr.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#279 - 2012-03-18 14:05:05 UTC
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
My fellow Amarrians have been curiously silent on this thread and I want to know why.


As it's probably become apparent by now, they were giving you the time to weave rope, tie it into a noose and slip it around your own neck.

Also, good going - in your flailing about, you've also kicked the footstool out from the feet of both Ston and Numenor with regards to their repeated claims of not directly supporting the Matari war effort. Not that it'll change much, considering it'd require PIE to venture out from behind their little meatshield of lowsec pirates, but it certainly reinforces the idea that one ought to think before opening their mouth.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#280 - 2012-03-18 15:32:09 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
Edaine paid the million ISK to Teraa Matar, just like i asked him to. 10% of all my taxable mission earnings will now go to support the efforts of the Teraa Matar.


Thank you for publicly admitting that you are providing material aid to the enemies of Amarr.



While not the smartest statement of all time, the isk donated to Teraa Matar by Mr. Cresthill, or any other humanitarian cause, will be used only for the relocation, medical needs, housing, and other costs associated with repatriation of recently freed or emancipated slaves returning to the Minmatar Republic.

If anyone wishes transaction receipts, you are welcome to them.

Avlynka Surionen

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"