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Industrialists? Should you vote? Who should you vote for?

First post
Author
Frying Doom
#81 - 2012-03-16 03:35:32 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I asked these question not to attack but to honestly learn more about you,


Bugger, Target lock cancelled Big smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#82 - 2012-03-16 05:56:46 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
What I can use advisers for is my original intention.


Listening to players, moderating disussions, compiling ideas, and sifting through bad suggestions is tedious work - but you don't need a board of advisors to do it for you. In fact, you don't even have to be elected to the CSM to roll up your sleeves and get to work. This is what I've been trying to prove with my work over the last 6 months, and much has been accomplished in terms of informing CCP as to the players wishes for Faction Warfare, and I'm very excited to see the results this summer whether or not I get elected to the councii.

Most importantly, you do understand that the CSM is an advisory council itself, right? I wouldn't keep advertising your plans to rely on advisors if I were you, voters are going to struggle with the idea of an advisor relying on other advisors to get the work done. It also leaves you wide open to becoming the star of the next "Yo Dawg" meme. Somewhere there's a Goon already working on this, its just a matter of time before we see it posted somewhere.

Quote:
Work on ideas do I want to champion.


Well, at least you are willing to admit that are ideas you want to champion, even if you are still going to use advisors to advise you on how to advise CCP about the ideas you like. Earlier though, you accused me of only championing my own ideas instead of those of the players.

Lets just drop the pretense that personal passions shouldn't play into what each CSM member contributes during their term, ultimately every CSM member SHOULD care deeply about enough things in the game to be willing to put the work in to see that they get fixed. We both know that CSM members should care, and we both know that CSM members should listen to players as well, so this isn't worth arguing about. You need to be getting out more to the voters right now about just what it is you care about, and find a way to truly demonstrate how hard you're willing to work yourself at the job.

Quote:
So I haven't wasted a lot of peoples times with 20 pages of exactly how I want Eve


Now this is just rude and uncalled for. Those 20 pages contained a great deal of PLAYER ideas, sources cited, and contained a list of acknowledgements for those that contributed to its creation. It was a community project as much as it was any kind of personal manifesto, and I literally said this in a disclaimer on the first content page. To say it wasted peoples time is to disrespect the 34 pages of mostly thoughtful discussion that followed after its release, and it disrespects the hundreds of voters specifically referencing my platform document as the reason they decided to support me with their votes.

Quote:

because it isn't my call and by the time CCP is done with it any idea will evolve using their game development experience to be likely different that what is proposed.


Again, if you'd read even the first page of my platform document you'd see I said almost the exact same sentence.

This is why I've said just work on being YOU, Issler Dainze, and you'll earn more votes. It's never too late to share with the voters what makes you unique, instead of repeatedly defending yourself by saying you'll do all the same things for them that the rest of us will too. Part of the fun in this campaign has been getting to know all other candidates and learning about what they enjoy and what they're passionate about. I asked these question not to attack but to honestly learn more about you, because up to this point you've insisted on holding your cards close to your chest and speaking about the issues as broadly as possible.


Hans, consistently proving himself to be well-spoken and well-reasoned. I don't care that I can hear Justin Beiber in his background on TS3, vote Hans today!

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Frying Doom
#83 - 2012-03-16 06:10:53 UTC
If advisers didn't have advisers we would be royally screwed.

Hell even in a primitive backwater like the United states of America, their advisers have advisers. Like the national security adviser has the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#84 - 2012-03-16 09:00:02 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
If advisers didn't have advisers we would be royally screwed.

Hell even in a primitive backwater like the United states of America, their advisers have advisers. Like the national security adviser has the Joint Chiefs of Staff.


That is a terrible analogy. The elected player representatives (re: CSM) advise CCP on items protected by the NDA. Why elect someone who doesn't have any actual ideas/stances-on-issues, when CCP will rely on those ideas/stances-on-issues to advise them on how to proceed with developing the game?

Besides, EVERY candidate running has a group of advisers. It's not something special that is making Issler stand out amongst the crowd. The other candidates simply realize that they can't rely solely on being advised by players on issues protected by the NDA. Sure, they can get updated on issues that need fixing and areas of the game that need to be reiterated, but that is about it.

Candidates have to have their own opinions otherwise they will be useless to CCP, imo.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Frying Doom
#85 - 2012-03-16 09:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Yes there are times when the NDA would get in the way, but I would prefer a candidate who is ready to listen to the people at the time of the discussion like the before and after of Incarna than have someone who believes that because they got elected they ARE the will of the people. Like all the RL politicians that vote in a manner completely opposed to their constituents.

Like a Jury I would rather have one with an open mind, than a closed one.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#86 - 2012-03-16 09:24:47 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes there are times when the NDA would get in the way, but I would prefer a candidate who is ready to listen to the people at the time of the discussion like the before and after of Incarna than have someone who believes that because they got elected they ARE the will of the people. Like all the RL politicians that vote in a manner completely opposed to their constituents.

Like a Jury I would rather have one with an open mind, than a closed one.


Okay, lets take a look at Hans Jagerblitzen then. Not only did he rally the FW community (has Issler rallied any community?) which was one of the most disjointed and fractious player demographics in the game, but he amalgamated their collective desires into a list of specific fixes that would drastically improve the FW experience for all players involved. Without any benefit to himself, he spent the past year working with players form the 4 factions and ultimately with the CSM6. They have said that Hans' work was the only reason they had anything to present to CCP about FW (and sadly, CCP chose not to listen to that advice and instead gave us "Alliances in FW!" whoop-de-doo).

If you look at the support Hans is getting, it isn't from a single corporation, a single alliance, even a single player group. He has support from all of the four militias, he has support from lowsec pirate groups, he has support from highsec pirate (griefer) groups, he has support form industrialists, high-seccers, even people in Null-sec who aren't affiliated with any of the major voting blocs. Why? It's because he has voiced his own opinions on what he thinks should be done, people have agreed or disagreed, and he has listened to people's advice and changed his own ideas to reflect that advice from the players at large. He has a history of being able to work with players in the EVE community, find out exactly what they want, and he has the ability to amend his own ideas to more accurately reflect the opinions and ideas of the players he is representing. However, he does this without being some pandering puppet that doesn't have his own ideas.

What experience does Issler have that Hans doesn't? Sure, Issler has 5 years in-game more than Hans, but Issler hasn't talked about what experiences those 5-years have given him. Hans has talked about his experiences in the game (mining, PI, POS, boosters, PvP, FW, low-sec+high-sec) and is knowledgeable about those aspects of the game he has engaged in. He doesn't pretend to be an expert on the intricacies of Nullsec and WH space, and I think it behooves him to take this approach. He is confident in what he knows, but he is able to interact in a positive manner with the EVE Online communities and have a reasonable and informed discussion about what needs to be fixed as well as having his own opinions that will be useful to CCP when discussing NDA topics about the future of EVE Online.

2cents, /ramble

tl;dr vote hans.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Frying Doom
#87 - 2012-03-16 09:33:06 UTC
I have only one thing to say about Hans.

I hope he gets in. He deserves it. Unlike certain goonsBig smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#88 - 2012-03-16 09:38:48 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
I have only one thing to say about Hans.

I hope he gets in. He deserves it. Unlike certain goonsBig smile


I think The Mittani should get a seat just as much as Hans. The CSM6 was successful (although I don't believe he was the sole reason for this, not by a long-shot) and he does have good ideas.

You just have to separate The Mittani, Chairman of CSM6 & Null-Sec Player Representative from The Mittani, Space King of Goonswarm, Internet Troll & Griefer Extraordinaire. They are two distinct people, in my opinion, as much as he and his Goonions try and make them one. Pirate

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Frying Doom
#89 - 2012-03-16 09:48:14 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I have only one thing to say about Hans.

I hope he gets in. He deserves it. Unlike certain goonsBig smile


I think The Mittani should get a seat just as much as Hans. The CSM6 was successful (although I don't believe he was the sole reason for this, not by a long-shot) and he does have good ideas.

You just have to separate The Mittani, Chairman of CSM6 & Null-Sec Player Representative from The Mittani, Space King of Goonswarm, Internet Troll & Griefer Extraordinaire. They are two distinct people, in my opinion, as much as he and his Goonions try and make them one. Pirate

In all honesty my dislike for The Mittani on the CSM has little to do with him specifically. It is more to do with the shocking treatment democracy has gotten due to the rules that have been set up for voting. Oh that and the EGO.

Personally for CSM 8 I would like the eligibility to vote to be based on time active preferably 90 days minimum before the next election, rather than age of the character. As it stands you just have to plex up old inactive accounts just before voting day.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#90 - 2012-03-16 14:39:15 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
... but he amalgamated their collective desires into a list of specific fixes that would drastically improve the FW experience for all players involved....

And what did CCP/CSM do with that list?

They ignored it and ticked off the top two items (read oldest) on their backlog and applied the easiest 'fixes' possible;
- Daily system flips (30 plex to flip, minimum 70 spawn per day) with boredom for all rather than just the DT crowd, they actually managed to make the occupancy game even more meaningless .. whoop-di-*******-doo.
- Alliances got a foot in, surprised there are not more that have joined but reckon they already have loads of bomber alts in place so 'meh'.

We'd have benefited more from a general low-sec revamp than the nonsense they peddle with a FW sticker attached if you ask me. Yes I am rather miffed at the whole thing, but then I recognize the Colourful Cake™ they keep feeding us as the mouldy bread that it is.

Vote for Hans. Amarr needs its puppet Minnie on the council! God Wills It! *snicker* Smile
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#91 - 2012-03-16 14:42:16 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
... but he amalgamated their collective desires into a list of specific fixes that would drastically improve the FW experience for all players involved....

And what did CCP/CSM do with that list?

They ignored it and ticked off the top two items (read oldest) on their backlog and applied the easiest 'fixes' possible;
- Daily system flips (30 plex to flip, minimum 70 spawn per day) with boredom for all rather than just the DT crowd, they actually managed to make the occupancy game even more meaningless .. whoop-di-*******-doo.
- Alliances got a foot in, surprised there are not more that have joined but reckon they already have loads of bomber alts in place so 'meh'.

We'd have benefited more from a general low-sec revamp than the nonsense they peddle with a FW sticker attached if you ask me. Yes I am rather miffed at the whole thing, but then I recognize the Colourful Cake™ they keep feeding us as the mouldy bread that it is.

Vote for Hans. Amarr needs its puppet Minnie on the council! God Wills It! *snicker* Smile


I knew there was a reason he has all those Pax Amarria in his hangar! Cry

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2012-03-16 14:51:54 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Personally for CSM 8 I would like the eligibility to vote to be based on time active preferably 90 days minimum before the next election, rather than age of the character. As it stands you just have to plex up old inactive accounts just before voting day.

i still enjoy your hilarious conspiracy theories about how we are spending oodles of money to win

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#93 - 2012-03-16 19:26:31 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
What I can use advisers for is my original intention.


Listening to players, moderating disussions, compiling ideas, and sifting through bad suggestions is tedious work - but you don't need a board of advisors to do it for you. In fact, you don't even have to be elected to the CSM to roll up your sleeves and get to work. This is what I've been trying to prove with my work over the last 6 months, and much has been accomplished in terms of informing CCP as to the players wishes for Faction Warfare, and I'm very excited to see the results this summer whether or not I get elected to the councii.

Most importantly, you do understand that the CSM is an advisory council itself, right? I wouldn't keep advertising your plans to rely on advisors if I were you, voters are going to struggle with the idea of an advisor relying on other advisors to get the work done. It also leaves you wide open to becoming the star of the next "Yo Dawg" meme. Somewhere there's a Goon already working on this, its just a matter of time before we see it posted somewhere.

Quote:
Work on ideas do I want to champion.


Well, at least you are willing to admit that are ideas you want to champion, even if you are still going to use advisors to advise you on how to advise CCP about the ideas you like. Earlier though, you accused me of only championing my own ideas instead of those of the players.

Lets just drop the pretense that personal passions shouldn't play into what each CSM member contributes during their term, ultimately every CSM member SHOULD care deeply about enough things in the game to be willing to put the work in to see that they get fixed. We both know that CSM members should care, and we both know that CSM members should listen to players as well, so this isn't worth arguing about. You need to be getting out more to the voters right now about just what it is you care about, and find a way to truly demonstrate how hard you're willing to work yourself at the job.

Quote:
So I haven't wasted a lot of peoples times with 20 pages of exactly how I want Eve


Now this is just rude and uncalled for. Those 20 pages contained a great deal of PLAYER ideas, sources cited, and contained a list of acknowledgements for those that contributed to its creation. It was a community project as much as it was any kind of personal manifesto, and I literally said this in a disclaimer on the first content page. To say it wasted peoples time is to disrespect the 34 pages of mostly thoughtful discussion that followed after its release, and it disrespects the hundreds of voters specifically referencing my platform document as the reason they decided to support me with their votes.

Quote:

because it isn't my call and by the time CCP is done with it any idea will evolve using their game development experience to be likely different that what is proposed.


Again, if you'd read even the first page of my platform document you'd see I said almost the exact same sentence.

This is why I've said just work on being YOU, Issler Dainze, and you'll earn more votes. It's never too late to share with the voters what makes you unique, instead of repeatedly defending yourself by saying you'll do all the same things for them that the rest of us will too. Part of the fun in this campaign has been getting to know all other candidates and learning about what they enjoy and what they're passionate about. I asked these question not to attack but to honestly learn more about you, because up to this point you've insisted on holding your cards close to your chest and speaking about the issues as broadly as possible.


Sorry, the forums ate my reply. It was awesomely crafted and would have had you voting for me!! Big smile

Seriously, it isn't hard to find me having repeatedly shared my ideas about Eve. I've had exactly the same position since I ran and won in CSM 2 and later CSM 3 (well in 3 as the first alt by only a small percentage of votes)

You and I have taken a very different approach to this election. I am of the opinion that the folks I am trying to reach largely aren't in the forums and aren't likely to be reading large multi-page blogs, they are just out in Eve crunching rocks.

But to claim that since I haven't created a multi-page manifesto means I have no opinions, ideas or positions in Eve is simply wrong.

I would have loved to debated you when it would have mattered but I like some other candidates I was never included in the cool kids of Eve Reindeer games of the debates (except one where technical issues prevented participation).

So good luck in the elections, you look to be doing well if your fan base in the forums are any indication and soon we'll no if I ever choose to do this again if I should get my 20 page screed hosted somewhere.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
Eight years and industrialist
Not Invited to the Cool Kids Reindeer Games
CSM 7 Candidate
Frying Doom
#94 - 2012-03-16 22:49:06 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Personally for CSM 8 I would like the eligibility to vote to be based on time active preferably 90 days minimum before the next election, rather than age of the character. As it stands you just have to plex up old inactive accounts just before voting day.

i still enjoy your hilarious conspiracy theories about how we are spending oodles of money to win

It would be nice to know that alot of the characters voting were not just re-activated just to vote. Especially after last years dead people voting, on the 5 day account activation.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Ka P'lah
Doomheim
#95 - 2012-03-17 01:49:30 UTC
To roleplay Admiral Ackbar for a sec: "It's a trap!"

Please avoid the trap of freindly-fire incidents.

Issler and Hans, you guys are pretty much natural allies in that you both seek to benefit the eve community as a whole...a simple statement, perhaps, but a lot of complex ideas encapsuleerated / represented by it.

I'd like to see both Issler and Hans on the CSM.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#96 - 2012-03-17 01:58:27 UTC
Ka P'lah wrote:
To roleplay Admiral Ackbar for a sec: "It's a trap!"

Please avoid the trap of freindly-fire incidents.

Issler and Hans, you guys are pretty much natural allies in that you both seek to benefit the eve community as a whole...a simple statement, perhaps, but a lot of complex ideas encapsuleerated / represented by it.

I'd like to see both Issler and Hans on the CSM.


Unfortunately, they are both competing for some of the same votes. When the elections are done with, and both Hans and Issler manage to make it to CSM (hopefully!), I have no doubt they'll play well together. But right now, every vote counts. Blink

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Frying Doom
#97 - 2012-03-17 03:00:19 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Ka P'lah wrote:
To roleplay Admiral Ackbar for a sec: "It's a trap!"

Please avoid the trap of freindly-fire incidents.

Issler and Hans, you guys are pretty much natural allies in that you both seek to benefit the eve community as a whole...a simple statement, perhaps, but a lot of complex ideas encapsuleerated / represented by it.

I'd like to see both Issler and Hans on the CSM.


Unfortunately, they are both competing for some of the same votes. When the elections are done with, and both Hans and Issler manage to make it to CSM (hopefully!), I have no doubt they'll play well together. But right now, every vote counts. Blink

So long as More people vote, I think all of EvE wins.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!