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I think Tengu is too much powerful
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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-03-14 23:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Noisrevbus wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Simple fact is that short of another 100mn T3 nothing is fast enough to catch a Tengu can hold it long enough for everything to catch up.

Without a perfect warpin, catching a Tengu that is rolling (sometimes) 3100m/s is an issue because anything that can catch it needs a MWD and that means that the missiles are doing damn near full damage.

So that leaves only a couple ships that can even run the thing down, and weather or not they can hold it long enough for a fleet of battlecruisers to catch up is always hit or miss.

So that leaves catching it on a gate and blobbing before it can get to speed or just take off as it lands.


Have you ever heard of this wonderful contraption called a dual 1600mm Loki, that can still go 3km/s as while putting dual webs on a Tengu well over it's entire point-range?

They'll pretty much fight each other to a stalemate - but i doubt you'd be the first to claim this game is balanced around 1v1, or would you Onictus?

On the upside, the very same Loki is definately difficult to blitz for a Tengu who need to escape - it's well difficult even for a sizable group of Tengus. Especially considering them using Missiles, which are quite weak against sig-speed mitigation. Though in some people's oppinion, those are peripheral matters.

Roll



That would be the "short of another 100mn T3" now'.

The rest was assuming that you didn't have one.
Noisrevbus
#42 - 2012-03-15 00:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Onictus wrote:

That would be the "short of another 100mn T3" now'.

The rest was assuming that you didn't have one.


I thought i was pretty constructive using an inverted example of a 100mn Loki versus a full group of Tengus.

The reversed event is a no brainer, anyone should be able to field some LR-recons with Logi support Straight.

You can even 100mn some Recons (though that's hardly a prerequesite). Or did your "a Tengu" turn into a group of Tengus now? You begin to sound more and more like the typical risk-adverse new deal PvP player who look for excuses not to fight. I'm getting amiss what the percieved problem is now: Tengus, Tech III in general or 100mn?

The topic isn't called "Tengus are powerful" afterall, i doubt anyone would disagree with that Roll.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#43 - 2012-03-15 00:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Norkoff
Tanya Powers wrote:
No he's not being too much optimistic. I lost a good bunch of tengus with all kinds of pimpy/rocky/different uber fits to those armor double web lokis.
And did they pick you off solo....? "Everybody" is saying they have killed a 100mn AB Tengu solo and it isn't hard. But there seems to be a strange lack of killmails to back-up those claims. Weird, I know.

Tanya Powers wrote:
Also this
Quote:
But as an aside, is the problem the Tengu or really its off-grid maxed Loki booster?

Maybe it's time for CCP to do something about this, off gridd = no bonus
Purty much yeah. Tengu without it's speed boost, 45km point, and super resists/boosting, isn't nearly as dangerous. But if you can't run that alt to boost yourself, then you wouldn't pay to keep that account subbed. And that hits CCP's wallet. So while I agree it would be a fantastic change, I don't see it happening.

Another solution could be to just nerf the hell out of the Power Core subsystem so you can't fit a 100mn AB. Forced to rely on a MWD instead, the Tengu burns cap faster, is a larger target for big guns, and is susceptible to scram. Might make things more manageable.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-03-15 11:57:37 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
No he's not being too much optimistic. I lost a good bunch of tengus with all kinds of pimpy/rocky/different uber fits to those armor double web lokis.
And did they pick you off solo....? "Everybody" is saying they have killed a 100mn AB Tengu solo and it isn't hard. But there seems to be a strange lack of killmails to back-up those claims. Weird, I know.

Tanya Powers wrote:
Also this
Quote:
But as an aside, is the problem the Tengu or really its off-grid maxed Loki booster?

Maybe it's time for CCP to do something about this, off gridd = no bonus
Purty much yeah. Tengu without it's speed boost, 45km point, and super resists/boosting, isn't nearly as dangerous. But if you can't run that alt to boost yourself, then you wouldn't pay to keep that account subbed. And that hits CCP's wallet. So while I agree it would be a fantastic change, I don't see it happening.

Another solution could be to just nerf the hell out of the Power Core subsystem so you can't fit a 100mn AB. Forced to rely on a MWD instead, the Tengu burns cap faster, is a larger target for big guns, and is susceptible to scram. Might make things more manageable.



Not sure about that one.

Its not like there are no counters to a big AB Tengu (Loki most notably)
Hemmo Paskiainen
#45 - 2012-03-15 14:24:21 UTC
the pimped tengu you talking about cost 2-4 billion isk. You expect to kill it with a cheap ass cane? Stop crying, get loki and get a falcon friend. T1 battlecruisers are not the ships that counter all other ships. pvp is a rock paper cisor game, learn it. Ether by lisning to more experiance players, strategy of outsmarting the oppoment or by blobbing him

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-03-15 14:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Noisrevbus wrote:
Onictus wrote:

That would be the "short of another 100mn T3" now'.

The rest was assuming that you didn't have one.


I thought i was pretty constructive using an inverted example of a 100mn Loki versus a full group of Tengus.

The reversed event is a no brainer, anyone should be able to field some LR-recons with Logi support Straight.

You can even 100mn some Recons (though that's hardly a prerequesite). Or did your "a Tengu" turn into a group of Tengus now? You begin to sound more and more like the typical risk-adverse new deal PvP player who look for excuses not to fight. I'm getting amiss what the percieved problem is now: Tengus, Tech III in general or 100mn?

The topic isn't called "Tengus are powerful" afterall, i doubt anyone would disagree with that Roll.



Not at all, but I have tried to run down a fully boosted pimp tengu with a 13 man fleet. The Tengu pilot smoked the two inties we had with us and then merrily kited the tier 2 BCs fleet of drakes and canes to the point that we didn't manage to break his passive resist.

So like I said without the right set-up its pointless you aren't catching a boosted up pimp tengu for long enough to do anything meaningful.

....please note I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-03-15 14:52:36 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:
Onictus wrote:

That would be the "short of another 100mn T3" now'.

The rest was assuming that you didn't have one.


I thought i was pretty constructive using an inverted example of a 100mn Loki versus a full group of Tengus.

The reversed event is a no brainer, anyone should be able to field some LR-recons with Logi support Straight.

You can even 100mn some Recons (though that's hardly a prerequesite). Or did your "a Tengu" turn into a group of Tengus now? You begin to sound more and more like the typical risk-adverse new deal PvP player who look for excuses not to fight. I'm getting amiss what the percieved problem is now: Tengus, Tech III in general or 100mn?

The topic isn't called "Tengus are powerful" afterall, i doubt anyone would disagree with that Roll.



Not at all, but I have tried to run down a fully boosted pimp tengu with a 13 man fleet. The Tengu pilot smoked the two inties we had with us and then merrily kited the tier 2 BCs fleet of drakes and canes to the point that we didn't manage to break his passive resist.

So like I said without the right set-up its pointless you aren't catching a boosted up pimp tengu for long enough to do anything meaningful.

....please note I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.


Sounds more like your fleet composition was at fault here, not the Tengu being over powered.

How about instead of a few interceptors, that usually die to anything quickly without Logistic support, you bring some Rapiers/Huginns and an Arazu/Lachesis instead?

That usually results in dead Tengu's as well as dead anything else.

Except Titans. Nothing kills them no matter what you bring. But you are -A- and knew that already.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-03-15 14:57:50 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:
Onictus wrote:

That would be the "short of another 100mn T3" now'.

The rest was assuming that you didn't have one.


I thought i was pretty constructive using an inverted example of a 100mn Loki versus a full group of Tengus.

The reversed event is a no brainer, anyone should be able to field some LR-recons with Logi support Straight.

You can even 100mn some Recons (though that's hardly a prerequesite). Or did your "a Tengu" turn into a group of Tengus now? You begin to sound more and more like the typical risk-adverse new deal PvP player who look for excuses not to fight. I'm getting amiss what the percieved problem is now: Tengus, Tech III in general or 100mn?

The topic isn't called "Tengus are powerful" afterall, i doubt anyone would disagree with that Roll.



Not at all, but I have tried to run down a fully boosted pimp tengu with a 13 man fleet. The Tengu pilot smoked the two inties we had with us and then merrily kited the tier 2 BCs fleet of drakes and canes to the point that we didn't manage to break his passive resist.

So like I said without the right set-up its pointless you aren't catching a boosted up pimp tengu for long enough to do anything meaningful.

....please note I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.


Sounds more like your fleet composition was at fault here, not the Tengu being over powered.

How about instead of a few interceptors, that usually die to anything quickly without Logistic support, you bring some Rapiers/Huginns and an Arazu/Lachesis instead?

That usually results in dead Tengu's as well as dead anything else.

Except Titans. Nothing kills them no matter what you bring. But you are -A- and knew that already.



Again, I didi't say there was anything wrong with it.

You have 6-7 bil in ships boosters and clones and can outfox a 13 man fleet with a single ship, hey, you earned it. I never had an issue there.

I was commenting on the tactical issues you are presented when you DON'T have an ideal set up to take down a 100mn T3 with a good pilot.... and the pilot was pretty darn good.
Strategos
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2012-03-15 15:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Strategos
Everyone complains when Minmitard ships aren't the #1 soloers. I think it's about time a missile ship can solo with some speed. I'm sick of seeing nothing but vagabonds, machs, hurricanes, cynabals, dramiels, daredevils, lokis. Finally another race has a solo spot and all the minmitards fanboys come out and cry that they aren't top dog and everthing needs to be nerfed so minmitard ships can solo it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#50 - 2012-03-15 16:41:14 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:

Also this

Quote:
But as an aside, is the problem the Tengu or really its off-grid maxed Loki booster?


Maybe it's time for CCP to do something about this, off gridd = no bonus


Neither one are problems.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-03-15 16:47:07 UTC
The key to beating a tengu is fairly simple. Just keep it scrammed and it will die.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#52 - 2012-03-15 17:04:42 UTC
Onictus wrote:

Not sure about that one.

Its not like there are no counters to a big AB Tengu (Loki most notably)


The thing about it is that the Tengu is remarkably unsuited to being able to attack anything that can actually keep up with it. Its only advantage comes from the fact people are willing to spend for the Domi point and the Fed Navy web. People complaining that they can't solo a 100mn AB Tengu with full bonuses with their T2 fit battlecruiser are insane - they're basically fighting a deadspace fit "small gang" (where the bonus ship isn't quite a full gang member).

Get your own bonuses (its not hard) and have a go of it. You'd be amazed how easy they are to kill.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#53 - 2012-03-15 17:23:15 UTC
You might want to rephrase that, it almost sounds as if you're saying the best way to counter maxed Loki boosters is to get one of your own.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#54 - 2012-03-15 17:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
The best way to counter Loki boosters is to scan them out and kill them. Its not like they're even remotely close to unscannable anymore. Besides, the point of the post was that all things equal (boosters, ISK on faction mods, etc) the Tengu isn't that unkillable. It just isn't.

-Liang

Ed: Hell, its not even that unkillable without all things being equal. Its a good ship, don't get me wrong, but its terribly easy to exploit the weaknesses of missiles.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-03-15 18:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Guys, relax.

CCP have previously murmoured that they're not happy with offgrid boosting (be damned if I can find the post on it), so I expect that might find itself on the recieving end of TomB's nerf bat come the summer expansion.

Nor would I be suprised if the entire T3 lineup gets a slight reduction in overall ability when they sort the gang link boosts out (which obsolete T2 BC's like the Eos et all), purely for the fact they do pretty much totally eclipse all the T2's.

I'd wait until CCP perform tiericide before going any further as well, as that might result in lots of ships being boosted.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#56 - 2012-03-15 21:09:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
but its terribly easy to exploit the weaknesses of missiles.


Sure missiles have weaknesses here, but let's not overstate things. To mitigate HM damage effectively you need an AB (or a Loki's skirmish links heh). But to tackle the Tengu, you need a MWD (or an oversized AB but again we're getting worryingly close to the Tengu's own trick being its best counter), and MWD offer little protection from missiles. Of course, certain ships with nice high speed/sig ratios will be quite effective, but even they can't just ignore the HML damage - particularly when the Tengu counter-webs them, which it will.

Now if the Tengu had turrets, then things are much easier, we just put a couple of TDs on it and giggle. But for the ewar route we're left with RSD and ECM, and if the Tengu has the dissolution sequencer subsystem, then damping a 112 km lock range or jamming 35 sensor strength sounds frustrating.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#57 - 2012-03-15 21:29:48 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
but its terribly easy to exploit the weaknesses of missiles.


Sure missiles have weaknesses here, but let's not overstate things. To mitigate HM damage effectively you need an AB (or a Loki's skirmish links heh). But to tackle the Tengu, you need a MWD (or an oversized AB but again we're getting worryingly close to the Tengu's own trick being its best counter), and MWD offer little protection from missiles. Of course, certain ships with nice high speed/sig ratios will be quite effective, but even they can't just ignore the HML damage - particularly when the Tengu counter-webs them, which it will.

Now if the Tengu had turrets, then things are much easier, we just put a couple of TDs on it and giggle. But for the ewar route we're left with RSD and ECM, and if the Tengu has the dissolution sequencer subsystem, then damping a 112 km lock range or jamming 35 sensor strength sounds frustrating.


Why do you feel that Cruisers/BCs running 100mn ABs is a bad thing? There are significant sacrifices made to do this - ranging from terrible agility to significant fitting issues. Your argument is very similar to saying its unfair that the only way to beat X at its own game is to fit a MWD.

Anyway, the point of my post is to show that there are a LARGE number of counters to the Tengu.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#58 - 2012-03-15 21:52:29 UTC
I agree that there are a good number of ways to counter 100 MN Tengus. I don't think the 100 MN AB Tengu itself is a real problem. But I dislike off-grid boosting alts - they're too powerful, the Skirmish links are too good and as they become more common they're going to become closer and closer to "necessary" to be competitive in these kinds of small gang environments. I don't think we want to get into a situation where a maxed link alt is considered to be necessary for small-gang pvp, this directly hinders newbies and results in homogenisation. As a general rule, I think that it's a bad sign if the best counter to anything involves some element that's also part of the problem.

I don't think that oversized ABs is a bad thing in itself, on the contrary, since they trade good speed and high speed/sig for lol agility, they offer something really different to normal propulsion. That's variety, that's good. They're certainly far superior to old-style nano which had speed and agility, together with (pre-QR) missile immunity,

In short, Tengu = basically fine, max-offgrid-boosted Tengu = getting a bit too much. If you disagree with that, then fair enough. P
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#59 - 2012-03-15 22:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Gypsio III wrote:
I agree that there are a good number of ways to counter 100 MN Tengus. I don't think the 100 MN AB Tengu itself is a real problem. But I dislike off-grid boosting alts - they're too powerful, the Skirmish links are too good and as they become more common they're going to become closer and closer to "necessary" to be competitive in these kinds of small gang environments. I don't think we want to get into a situation where a maxed link alt is considered to be necessary for small-gang pvp, this directly hinders newbies and results in homogenisation. As a general rule, I think that it's a bad sign if the best counter to anything involves some element that's also part of the problem.

I don't think that oversized ABs is a bad thing in itself, on the contrary, since they trade good speed and high speed/sig for lol agility, they offer something really different to normal propulsion. That's variety, that's good. They're certainly far superior to old-style nano which had speed and agility, together with (pre-QR) missile immunity,

In short, Tengu = basically fine, max-offgrid-boosted Tengu = getting a bit too much. If you disagree with that, then fair enough. P


I'm willing to concede that off grid skirmish links are perhaps too powerful and too necessary for day to day operation of small gangs, but tanking and info links are extremely limited by comparison. Then again, I am willing to concede that skirmish links are too powerful - on grid or off. I see no problem with them (read: gang bonuses as a whole) being off grid.

-Liang

Ed: Ah, BTW - I do disagree that gang boosted Tengu is too much because everyone has access to the same stuff and at that rate you should not expect to be soloing them without your own bonuses/buffs. I further believe that whether the booster is on grid or off grid makes no practical difference to the discussion of the ship.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#60 - 2012-03-15 23:24:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Anyway, the point of my post is to show that there are a LARGE number of counters to the Tengu.
And how many of those counters involve just one ship? (As equally blinged or boosted as the Tengu is just fine.) Cuz I think most counters involve multiple ships - and that generally indicates that something is overpowered. It reminds me alot of the arguments over the NanoPhoon.