These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A Hamrite Journey (formerly: Amarr for the Glory of God)
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#201 - 2012-03-15 01:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Scherezad
Theobar Cresthill wrote:
"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)


It took great courage to do what you've done. Not only that, but the ability to unseat ones' cherished beliefs in the face of evidence takes a master of rationality. Don't let accusations of being flippant turn your mind. It takes the greater person to admit that they're wrong and then take action to right it.

Well done, Captain Cresthill. If you ever find yourself in Caldari space, you have a friend there. Congratulations and best of luck; and do let us know how your journey progresses.
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#202 - 2012-03-15 13:21:11 UTC
Good.

As another on the IGS recently remarked, a true patriot must be able to see the flaws of his homeland and accept them. To refuse to do so is the path to mindless zealotry.

Much like facing oneself, facing one's home with eyes uncovered can be a cruel experience. Regardless of my own loyalty to Empire and Kingdom, I would rather you know what you speak of than that you espouse thoughtless rhetoric, Mr Cresthill.

That it broke you is unfortunate, and I am sorry for your losses, but I commend you on your strength of will to act on your new convictions. The Empire will never prosper as long as it is only guarded by the blind.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-03-15 14:12:45 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Good.

As another on the IGS recently remarked, a true patriot must be able to see the flaws of his homeland and accept them. To refuse to do so is the path to mindless zealotry.


See the flaws of his homeland and correct them. Which is unlikely to be an easy process, of course. But it has to start with a few people who are willing to stop and challenge common wisdom, to oppose it where it is wrong, and break it where it is immoral.

And you have to tread very carefully indeed if you don't want to become a pariah

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#204 - 2012-03-15 14:38:50 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
See the flaws of his homeland and correct them.


I mispoke; accept their existance, rather than deny them. That it is then our duty to combat those flaws should go without saying. Apathy is the greatest sin of all.
Theobar Cresthill
The Arzad Hamri Fellowship
#205 - 2012-03-15 15:02:39 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

See the flaws of his homeland and correct them. Which is unlikely to be an easy process, of course. But it has to start with a few people who are willing to stop and challenge common wisdom, to oppose it where it is wrong, and break it where it is immoral.


Dear Dr. Hakatain,
Your words are wise. But how do we do it? This is what troubles my mind. Perhaps part of the solution is to embrace the grief of a lost past that could have been better rather than denying it. Let me explain...

Imagine:
...if Arzad Hamri had lived and the unity of the Amarr and the Starkmanir had reached its intended apex?
...if that transformed society had been allowed to exist as a model?
...if Amarr society would have re-modeled itself after that vision of freedom and mutual respect?
...if the current government had the courage to admit the wrong of the present and the past and re-pattern the future?

It begins with risk and with humility. Arzad Hamri is an example that Amarrian leaders can be humble.

"The fire in our hearts burns for salvation, redemption, and grace. May the Word of God grant you the courage to save yourself and your people" (The Last Words of Arzad Hamri)
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-03-15 15:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
If the Amarrian dependence on slavery were a simple problem to solve, it would have been abolished centuries ago.

Unfortunately, it's a culture couched in opaque tradition. The halls of power are open to only the tiniest minority, and the process of acquiring that access selects against those with views deemed "unsavory" by the existing authority... or at least selects against those who have openly expressed them.

The Minmatar didn't do it with seven hundred years of freedom fighting. Arzad Hamri didn't achieve it with his humility. Empress Jamyl didn't do it with her decree of emancipation.

I once saw an asteroid the size of a small moon, out in W-space. We tried to estimate how long it would take to deplete using a single civilian mining laser. Our conclusion was that you'd have to be as patient as Deteaas to do it.

The same principle applies to the Empire. The telling blows against the Reclaiming don't come from warships and bloodshed. There's no amount of firepower in the world that'll break its armoured hide - quite the reverse, they will thrive on the blood of martyrs. Instead, we have to win the argument, change hearts and minds. Each such victory is another load of ore in the hold, but we've got a long op ahead of us.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#207 - 2012-03-15 15:48:58 UTC
Theobar Cresthill wrote:


Imagine:..

...if Amarr society would have re-modeled itself after that vision of freedom and mutual respect?


You're forgetting that Amarrian society is already a vision of freedom and mutual respect between Amarrians and members of former slave races such as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#208 - 2012-03-15 16:16:02 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
If the Amarrian dependence on slavery were a simple problem to solve, it would have been abolished centuries ago.

Unfortunately, it's a culture couched in opaque tradition. The halls of power are open to only the tiniest minority, and the process of acquiring that access selects against those with views deemed "unsavory" by the existing authority... or at least selects against those who have openly expressed them.

The Minmatar didn't do it with seven hundred years of freedom fighting. Arzad Hamri didn't achieve it with his humility. Empress Jamyl didn't do it with her decree of emancipation.

I once saw an asteroid the size of a small moon, out in W-space. We tried to estimate how long it would take to deplete using a single civilian mining laser. Our conclusion was that you'd have to be as patient as Deteaas to do it.

The same principle applies to the Empire. The telling blows against the Reclaiming don't come from warships and bloodshed. There's no amount of firepower in the world that'll break its armoured hide - quite the reverse, they will thrive on the blood of martyrs. Instead, we have to win the argument, change hearts and minds. Each such victory is another load of ore in the hold, but we've got a long op ahead of us.


One has only to look at the recent crops of Amarrian capsuleer "graduates" to see your metaphorical asteroid is already quite hollow and brittle; weakened from the inside by the twin failures of liberalism and emancipation.

I've been saying this for years, however.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#209 - 2012-03-15 17:27:24 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

You're forgetting that Amarrian society is already a vision of freedom and mutual respect between Amarrians and members of former slave races such as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.



And you're conveniently ignoring that those former slave races, in at least the case of the Ni-Kunni, were closely associated with the Empire to begin with.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#210 - 2012-03-15 19:04:41 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

You're forgetting that Amarrian society is already a vision of freedom and mutual respect between Amarrians and members of former slave races such as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.



And you're conveniently ignoring that those former slave races, in at least the case of the Ni-Kunni, were closely associated with the Empire to begin with.


Not that I want to defend the Empire here, but this is a factual error. They were only closely affiliated with the Empire in as much as they shared a planet prior to any of them having space travel. They are closely affiliated now because slavery adapted their culture's to fit the Empire after the fact.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#211 - 2012-03-15 19:21:42 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

You're forgetting that Amarrian society is already a vision of freedom and mutual respect between Amarrians and members of former slave races such as the Udorians and the Ni-Kunni.



And you're conveniently ignoring that those former slave races, in at least the case of the Ni-Kunni, were closely associated with the Empire to begin with.


Not that I want to defend the Empire here, but this is a factual error. They were only closely affiliated with the Empire in as much as they shared a planet prior to any of them having space travel. They are closely affiliated now because slavery adapted their culture's to fit the Empire after the fact.


I stand corrected. Still my point was that the Ni-Kunni are de facto members of the Empire anyway, so claiming 'freedom and respect' along those lines is hardly unbiased.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#212 - 2012-03-15 19:44:56 UTC
Mr. Cresthill, the change of heart is surprising... and welcomed.

Thank you. Should you require our assistance, ask.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#213 - 2012-03-15 20:26:03 UTC
Erm... not really touching this arguement with a long pole, but just a point - the Ni-Kunni never shared a planet with the original Empire. They're from Mishi IV, in the Aridia region. The Empire only got there about a millenia ago, some time after we started to expand out to the stars.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#214 - 2012-03-15 20:32:25 UTC
Esna Pitoojee wrote:
Erm... not really touching this arguement with a long pole, but just a point - the Ni-Kunni never shared a planet with the original Empire. They're from Mishi IV, in the Aridia region. The Empire only got there about a millenia ago, some time after we started to expand out to the stars.


My mistake.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#215 - 2012-03-16 08:23:29 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


I stand corrected. Still my point was that the Ni-Kunni are de facto members of the Empire anyway, so claiming 'freedom and respect' along those lines is hardly unbiased.



Yes, and if they accept their place the Minmatar will eventually be members of the Empire and enjoy the same freedom and respect.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#216 - 2012-03-16 08:37:29 UTC
Thanks for offering, but no.

Else
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#217 - 2012-03-16 10:37:39 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Thanks for offering, but no.

Else


So you don't want freedom and respect?

Fair enough.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#218 - 2012-03-16 12:01:16 UTC
Rodjy hun, you really need to get more roughage.

Youre looking a little backed up.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#219 - 2012-03-16 12:37:23 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Thanks for offering, but no.

Else


So you don't want freedom and respect?

Fair enough.


I think they'd rather that the Amarr learned to accept their place and live in reality:

That being, the Golden Fleet no longer has the power to run around enslaving everyone they come across, and if you really feel like spreading your religion you had better find another way.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#220 - 2012-03-16 12:48:28 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


That being, the Golden Fleet no longer has the power to run around enslaving everyone they come across, and if you really feel like spreading your religion you had better find another way.


I suspect that those who saw the Elder Fleet decimated would disagree with you.

But unlike the barbaric Minmatar, we Amarrians are a peace-loving people and that is why we prefer diplomacy or limited war to full-scale conflict.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori