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C5 WH vs.Incursions (Highsec) isk/hour
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Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#21 - 2011-09-23 14:17:26 UTC
Weasel Juice wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:

[...]
There is no "risk" in PvE when you have a brain. Risk vs. reward is concerning the risk of other players, not NPCs.

If you have half a brain and can put together a decent fleet and know what you're doing, you shouldn't lost a damn thing to NPCs in PvE. The risk comes from players. There is none in high sec.


People flying 1-3 billion ships on the average. Logi's are about 300-400mil. That gives you 1bn in logis, and a fair 10-20 bn in DPS in solid fleets.

Now there is suicide gankers, ECM Burst griefers, griefing Logi, griefing FCs, bad FCs, bad Logis, failfit Logis, disconnecs and idiots in OTAs - this is a very small list - incursions are risky. Don't kid yourself.

The fact that incursions require very careful planning and execution - and any derivation means people die proves its the content that is risky.


If Incursions WERE risky then there would be a negative cost incentive in doing so in "1-3bil ISK" ships. Ergo, your whole point disproves itself (well done) and your logic is completely backwards.

I've been doing Incursions for the past few weeks and yes, you can go 120mil an hour without a big sweat. Not a single ship in the fleet I was flying with was ever lost, or got near to such.

Contrast that to running sites in a wormhole when getting your ass raped off is simply a matter of time away.

Anyone who thinks doing PVE in highsec is as dangerous as doing so in nullsec with no local deserves a smack around the head.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

TriadSte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-09-23 14:29:21 UTC
Did any of your Logis disconnect?

Did anyone from your fleet who was dual boxing Logis disconnect?

Make no mistake about it Incursions are not easy, I'm quite fortunate and I know some of the best in the business to fly with and yes we are very organised. However It is still easy to lose ships whilst running Incursions.

The DPS is far greater than a C3 and C4 for absolute certain.
The Feuror
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-09-23 14:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: The Feuror
thanks for the replies so far guys

as far as the R&K carrier kill that **** happens R&K will gank you wherever they see fit at least you can make that bill back fairly easy in a C6

VVOOF is recruiting able pvpers for WH BLOPS operations
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#24 - 2011-09-23 14:44:23 UTC
The Feuror wrote:
thanks for the replies so far guys

as far as the R&K carrier kill in that **** happens R&K will gank you wherever they see fit at least you can make that bill bake fairly easy in a C6




This is risk. This is why its good that the isk/hr in wh space is high.

You don't have this risk with high sec incursions. Complain about logi/ecm/fc griefers all you want. These are quite easily avoided with proper preparation. These are not real risks.

Incursions in high sec should hit max 50 mil/hr/character, and I'd say that is pushing it right there.

Incursions in low sec, however, should easily exceed 100 mil/hr/character, if not more, as there is real risk there.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#25 - 2011-09-23 14:48:41 UTC
TriadSte wrote:


The DPS is far greater than a C3 and C4 for absolute certain.


Irrelevant. That DPS is coming from NPCs. Artificial intelligence.

You are presumably a human. As humans, we outsmart any AI CCP throws at us in due time and find effective ways to beat it. Thus, while there is some risk in the beginning, while learning how best to counter new AI, in the long run there is little to no risk if you understand the AI and prepare properly.
xVx dreadnaught
modro
Northern Coalition.
#26 - 2011-09-23 14:49:49 UTC
I enjoy running incursions. It's as much a social event for me as money grinding.

If my fleet is running optimal and every is on form, we can average about 100-120 mill per hour each.

The difference I see for incursions is that you require to be part of a team, some people lack the people skills and or don't want to work with others and so for them running havens, sanctums and worm-holing probably works best.

But if you want to be part of a group, enjoy some laughs and jokes with people and make a poop ton of isk at the same time, then incursions are the thing for you.

Only do something as long as you're having fun. if you're making a ton of isk on your own... but you're bored of the monotony of solo play, give me a shout in game and I'll get you sorted with a fleet.
Goose99
#27 - 2011-09-23 15:26:15 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
I enjoy running incursions. It's as much a social event for me as money grinding.

If my fleet is running optimal and every is on form, we can average about 100-120 mill per hour each.

The difference I see for incursions is that you require to be part of a team, some people lack the people skills and or don't want to work with others and so for them running havens, sanctums and worm-holing probably works best.

But if you want to be part of a group, enjoy some laughs and jokes with people and make a poop ton of isk at the same time, then incursions are the thing for you.

Only do something as long as you're having fun. if you're making a ton of isk on your own... but you're bored of the monotony of solo play, give me a shout in game and I'll get you sorted with a fleet.


^Basically this

You solo c3 sites, rats are easy, and yet it still pays more. Higher sites pay far more.

If this is truly unbalanced, all those wh dwellers would move back to highsec en mass for the easy money. You don't see this happening. Action speaks louder than words.
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#28 - 2011-09-23 15:28:39 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
Did any of your Logis disconnect?

Did anyone from your fleet who was dual boxing Logis disconnect?

Make no mistake about it Incursions are not easy, I'm quite fortunate and I know some of the best in the business to fly with and yes we are very organised. However It is still easy to lose ships whilst running Incursions.

The DPS is far greater than a C3 and C4 for absolute certain.



The problem with your list of incursions "risks" is:

A) wormholers potentially face those same risks.

if an RR tengu dc's you lose your RR. if your FC has never done a site or escalation before you are just as in trouble as if you pop that 3rd tama in an OTA.

Your point rests on the assumption that a C6 doesn't require organization and competence...

Perhaps a wh fleet doesn't require the same exactness when it comes to fleet composition and trust, but I don't believe that means highsec incursions are anywhere near as risky as a wormhole.

B) all your risks are 'known' whereas wormhole risks are 'unknown'

Like someone else said, if you're rolling in a 4bn pimped faction ship and still assume there is 'unknown' risk you're a nuttier person than I am. would you take that same fit into a nullsec incursion?

In a wormhole there is always 'unkown' risk.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#29 - 2011-09-23 15:38:01 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
Did any of your Logis disconnect?

Did anyone from your fleet who was dual boxing Logis disconnect?


Yes, logi's have DC'd on a few sites. It never presented a problem. Not to mention, there is EQUAL chance of a disconnect occurring in a WH, which invalidates your point. If you're in a fleet with someone whose sole connection (dual boxing logi) is the reason your fleet is alive, you're doing it wrong and it has nothing to do with the inherent risk.

There's no chance the DPS of a Vanguard exceeds a C4 site, even on an OTA blitz.

Quote:
Make no mistake about it Incursions are not easy


They're as easy as any PVE content. Grind by the numbers.

You also seem to forget (repeatedly) that the risk in a WH isn't coming from a PVE encounter.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#30 - 2011-09-23 15:42:52 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
If this is truly unbalanced, all those wh dwellers would move back to highsec en mass for the easy money. You don't see this happening. Action speaks louder than words.


Add some of the major WH alliances to your contacts list. Done?

Right.

Now go into an incursion constellation.

You'll see a whole **** load of WH residents there, as well as lots of nullsec folk.

So much so, it was awkard for me to get fleets as BUGRY are set -10 to most WH alliances Roll

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Goose99
#31 - 2011-09-23 15:47:20 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
If this is truly unbalanced, all those wh dwellers would move back to highsec en mass for the easy money. You don't see this happening. Action speaks louder than words.


Add some of the major WH alliances to your contacts list. Done?

Right.

Now go into an incursion constellation.

You'll see a whole **** load of WH residents there, as well as lots of nullsec folk.

So much so, it was awkard for me to get fleets as BUGRY are set -10 to most WH alliances Roll


How big is a "major wh alliance?"Lol

I happen to know numerous highsec carebears who's moved into whs since Incursion expansion. Since t3 market is stable, I'm going to take your completely objective first hand observation under advisement.Cool
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#32 - 2011-09-23 16:03:25 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
How big is a "major wh alliance?"Lol

I happen to know numerous highsec carebears who's moved into whs since Incursion expansion. Since t3 market is stable, I'm going to take your completely objective first hand observation under advisement.Cool


Go for any of them, tbh.

Also, without metrics this is just a "he said, she said" over whose annecdotal evidence we prefer. Without any figures, the whole thing is meaningless.

There are 101 reasons to live in a WH, and wanting to do group PVE content is only one.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#33 - 2011-09-23 16:12:38 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
If this is truly unbalanced, all those wh dwellers would move back to highsec en mass for the easy money. You don't see this happening. Action speaks louder than words.


Add some of the major WH alliances to your contacts list. Done?



This is one of the dumbest points made in this thread.
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-09-23 17:00:11 UTC
Quote:



You also seem to forget (repeatedly) that the risk in a WH isn't coming from a PVE encounter.


You can spam D-scan to reduce your WH risk to something near 0?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#35 - 2011-09-23 17:03:57 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
If this is truly unbalanced, all those wh dwellers would move back to highsec en mass for the easy money. You don't see this happening. Action speaks louder than words.


Add some of the major WH alliances to your contacts list. Done?



This is one of the dumbest points made in this thread.


His comment read as "If incursions were so good, WH residents would be doing them [instead of WH anoms]"

Which any effort will show you is true.

It's only dumb if you can't read.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#36 - 2011-09-23 17:04:55 UTC
Ooda wrote:
Quote:



You also seem to forget (repeatedly) that the risk in a WH isn't coming from a PVE encounter.


You can spam D-scan to reduce your WH risk to something near 0?


Thanks for the tip.

How do I set DSCAN to show cloaked ships?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#37 - 2011-09-23 17:08:16 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
If this is truly unbalanced, all those wh dwellers would move back to highsec en mass for the easy money. You don't see this happening. Action speaks louder than words.


Add some of the major WH alliances to your contacts list. Done?



This is one of the dumbest points made in this thread.


His comment read as "If incursions were so good, WH residents would be doing them [instead of WH anoms]"

Which any effort will show you is true.

It's only dumb if you can't read.


His comment read as....they are so good that wh residents are doing them...Roll

Incursion income needs a nerf.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#38 - 2011-09-23 17:11:24 UTC
Ooda wrote:
Quote:



You also seem to forget (repeatedly) that the risk in a WH isn't coming from a PVE encounter.


You can spam D-scan to reduce your WH risk to something near 0?


The ignorance in game mechanics expressed here is phenomenal.

Cloaked ships? Prebookmarked sites? Good probers?

D-scan provides moderate safety. But as anyone who has spent some time in w-space knows, its not a matter of if you'll get taken down, but a matter of when.
Maikhanh
Doomheim
#39 - 2011-09-23 18:15:52 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Quote:



You also seem to forget (repeatedly) that the risk in a WH isn't coming from a PVE encounter.


You can spam D-scan to reduce your WH risk to something near 0?


The ignorance in game mechanics expressed here is phenomenal.

Cloaked ships? Prebookmarked sites? Good probers?

D-scan provides moderate safety. But as anyone who has spent some time in w-space knows, its not a matter of if you'll get taken down, but a matter of when.

^this.

spam dscan all you want if it helps uncloak the arazu and bunch of T3 waiting for you to complete the site.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#40 - 2011-09-23 18:53:25 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
If this is truly unbalanced, all those wh dwellers would move back to highsec en mass for the easy money. You don't see this happening. Action speaks louder than words.


Add some of the major WH alliances to your contacts list. Done?



This is one of the dumbest points made in this thread.


His comment read as "If incursions were so good, WH residents would be doing them [instead of WH anoms]"

Which any effort will show you is true.

It's only dumb if you can't read.


His comment read as....they are so good that wh residents are doing them...Roll

Incursion income needs a nerf.


I'm not sure who you're trying to disagree with at the moment P

WH residents are doing them, given that both myself, members of my alliance, and members of WH alliances I've got on contacts lists are going them. Not to mention the number of null-alts you see around.

100mil+ an hour in highsec needs a nerf, on that we will agree (though whilst they're there....)

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,