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I think Tengu is too much powerful
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#21 - 2012-03-14 01:45:34 UTC
Sure. A group of ships can take out a Tengu. Fantastic.

But ideally EvE is a game of paper-rock-scissors. Is there one ship in the cruiser class, or even the BC class, that can take a 100mnAB Tengu solo? Reliably. Not "well if he starts in perfect range with specific ammo loaded". I mean a ship where in just about every situation it stands a good chance of beating a Tengu. If that doesn't exist then odds are the Tengu is overpowered.

You shouldn't need 30 rocks to beat one scissor. Doesn't matter if the scissors costs 100 times all the rocks together. If we go that route it just becomes "pay-to-win". And last I checked, we weren't to keen on that. (See fears/complaints about NEXUS store etc.)

And for full-disclosure, I am in the process of getting a Tengu.
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-03-14 03:10:52 UTC
I guess a Tengu can beat a Tengu every time...............
Wish I had a Tengu................
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#23 - 2012-03-14 09:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Sure. A group of ships can take out a Tengu. Fantastic.

But ideally EvE is a game of paper-rock-scissors. Is there one ship in the cruiser class, or even the BC class, that can take a 100mnAB Tengu solo? Reliably. Not "well if he starts in perfect range with specific ammo loaded". I mean a ship where in just about every situation it stands a good chance of beating a Tengu. If that doesn't exist then odds are the Tengu is overpowered.

You shouldn't need 30 rocks to beat one scissor. Doesn't matter if the scissors costs 100 times all the rocks together. If we go that route it just becomes "pay-to-win". And last I checked, we weren't to keen on that. (See fears/complaints about NEXUS store etc.)

And for full-disclosure, I am in the process of getting a Tengu.



[Loki, Loki Tengu Muncher]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Federation Navy 10MN MicroWarpdrive
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Loki Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers
Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization


Oh I'm sorry, you were within 70 Kilometres of me, I just brawled you to death.

(You can also roll with a Dual Rep set up which will tank a Tengus with HMs and 5 Launchers Fairly Easily)
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#24 - 2012-03-14 10:37:25 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Oh I'm sorry, you were within 70 Kilometres of me, I just brawled you to death

(You can also roll with a Dual Rep set up which will tank a Tengus with HMs and 5 Launchers Fairly Easily)
It's a good fit. But I think you are being a bit overly optimistic.

Tengu is doing full damage all 70km. Loki is only applying falloff dmg around 28km, and doesn't get full until 3km. And even when the Loki is using EMP, Tengu can still tank it pretty well with just overheat. If we start using booster links, Blue Pill, and Crystals the Loki isn't putting a dent in it at all. And let's assume Mr Loki is fully dorked out with Slaves, booster links, and even Akemon's. Sadly the Tengu is still gonna burn him down in about 6-7 minutes. If you try throwing dual reps on the Loki you gotta use at least one cap booster, so there goes a web. And keep in mind that the Loki doesn't exactly have a large cargo bay to carry charges around

Pair that Loki up with any other decent combat ship and you got a dead Tengu. But in a 1v1, my money is still on the broken Tengu.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#25 - 2012-03-14 10:57:55 UTC
Unless you have a seriously pimped 100mn AB Tengu your looking at a 400-500dps tank (Links not withstanding) so it will die assuming it has to stop heating before the Lokis buffer burns down, unfortunately I simply cannot find a Loki setup that allows 6 turrets and a neut, sigh.

I will however say it doesnt take "30 Rocks" to break the Tengus scissors, a Huggin/Rapier and a couple of Hurricanes (1600 plated preferably due to higher EHP and being able to fit there own webs, but nano canes could probably do it too) will do it with a minimum of difficulty.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#26 - 2012-03-14 11:22:44 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Sure. A group of ships can take out a Tengu. Fantastic.

But ideally EvE is a game of paper-rock-scissors. Is there one ship in the cruiser class, or even the BC class, that can take a 100mnAB Tengu solo? Reliably. Not "well if he starts in perfect range with specific ammo loaded". I mean a ship where in just about every situation it stands a good chance of beating a Tengu. If that doesn't exist then odds are the Tengu is overpowered.


EFTing this a few days ago, I think a Sacrilege should be able to handle it. Room for dual webs, good tank, able to hit resist holes. The problems are no cap booster with dual web and lol damage, meaning that you may have to wait for the Tengu to run out of cap boosters. As solo solutions it doesn't look great tbh. Lol

But as an aside, is the problem the Tengu or really its off-grid maxed Loki booster?
Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-03-14 19:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Abyss Azizora
From what I've seen of killmails/reports the Tengu is the ultimate, borderline unkillable, solo ship of choice. I've never seens any killmail where any ship other than another tengu solo-killed a tengu. (You would think there would be at least one case where the pilot was an idiot and lost it solo.)

Everyone knows the 100mn Tengu is overpowered as hell. But most people use it, so most don't care if it gets balanced. (Unlike other ships that would be harder to get into.)

PS: Not a whine, just a statement of the facts, feel free to prove me wrong with several solo-killmails, I'd love to see them. (Please avoid lol-fit tengu kills though, I mean properly fit ones using the well known solo-god build.
Beef Knuckleback
Pawnstars INC
#28 - 2012-03-14 20:06:41 UTC
Sounds like all the butthurt is about a specific type of Tengu fit, as opposed to the Tengu in general.

The solution is obvious. Arrow Class-restrict afterburners, or restrict the Tengu sub-system bonuses to 10mn ABs only.

Problem solved. Big smile
ShadowFire15
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-03-14 20:19:49 UTC
ive taken a tengu down. was either with a legion or a hurricane but either way they arent invincible.

[i]Stan Smith had a snow storm over weekend guy was shoveling snow outside, so i shot him and mined the snow myself. concord never showed up. on an unrelated note, i have a court date next tuesday[/i]
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#30 - 2012-03-14 20:26:39 UTC
Beef Knuckleback wrote:
Sounds like all the butthurt is about a specific type of Tengu fit, as opposed to the Tengu in general.

The solution is obvious. Arrow Class-restrict afterburners, or restrict the Tengu sub-system bonuses to 10mn ABs only.

Problem solved. Big smile


There isn't really a problem to be had. If someone drops 3B ISK on a Tengu, its expected that it might be a bit difficult to take down. I personally have no problems killing 100mn Tengus.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-03-14 20:50:39 UTC
The only issue I have with the tengu (coming from someone with 2 tengu toons) is mostly with the missile system. Show me any other cruiser class ship that can apply full DPS from essentially 0 to 100km.
Denuo Secus
#32 - 2012-03-14 21:09:54 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
The only issue I have with the tengu (coming from someone with 2 tengu toons) is mostly with the missile system. Show me any other cruiser class ship that can apply full DPS from essentially 0 to 100km.


It does not apply 'full DPS' to all kinds of targets. Missiles have weak points as well as turrets.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#33 - 2012-03-14 21:47:22 UTC
Kyoko Yamakawa wrote:
every time i met Tengu, i got killed. what kind of ship can fight Tengu? Even it's tech 3 cruiser, it still is a Cruiser. This bloody Cruiser broken the balance of this game. it can fight most ships but capital ships. Cry


I think you should learn to use neut, web (Rapier) and long-scram (Arazu), and not scream "Nerf it because it killed me!"

1/10 on account of getting me to respond, but aside from that keep practising.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-03-14 21:57:10 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
The only issue I have with the tengu (coming from someone with 2 tengu toons) is mostly with the missile system. Show me any other cruiser class ship that can apply full DPS from essentially 0 to 100km.


It does not apply 'full DPS' to all kinds of targets. Missiles have weak points as well as turrets.


Sure they do. But in practice their weakness is not the same, and in my opinion not as bad as turrets.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-03-14 21:58:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Oh I'm sorry, you were within 70 Kilometres of me, I just brawled you to death

(You can also roll with a Dual Rep set up which will tank a Tengus with HMs and 5 Launchers Fairly Easily)
It's a good fit. But I think you are being a bit overly optimistic.

Tengu is doing full damage all 70km. Loki is only applying falloff dmg around 28km, and doesn't get full until 3km. And even when the Loki is using EMP, Tengu can still tank it pretty well with just overheat. If we start using booster links, Blue Pill, and Crystals the Loki isn't putting a dent in it at all. And let's assume Mr Loki is fully dorked out with Slaves, booster links, and even Akemon's. Sadly the Tengu is still gonna burn him down in about 6-7 minutes. If you try throwing dual reps on the Loki you gotta use at least one cap booster, so there goes a web. And keep in mind that the Loki doesn't exactly have a large cargo bay to carry charges around

Pair that Loki up with any other decent combat ship and you got a dead Tengu. But in a 1v1, my money is still on the broken Tengu.



No he's not being too much optimistic. I lost a good bunch of tengus with all kinds of pimpy/rocky/different uber fits to those armor double web lokis.

They're extremely difficult to kill for a tengu even with some 3B lol fits you can see on eve-kill, you have very good chances to achieve this if the loki pilot is bad, low skills and doesn't know how Tengu works, if he does you're just a flying wreck that doesn't know what is about to happen to you.
Learn the strengts of Tengu and it's weaknesses and you'll easily find out why loki will pulverise your tengu.

Also this

Quote:
But as an aside, is the problem the Tengu or really its off-grid maxed Loki booster?


Maybe it's time for CCP to do something about this, off gridd = no bonus
Stickyhand
Velators at Dawn
#36 - 2012-03-14 23:09:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stickyhand
Sophisto wrote:
I lost my first Tengu running a mission in low sec to another Tengu who scanned me down with a friend.. they webbed, neut'd, and my omni tanked mission runner Tengu dropped in 30 secs. Theyre not OP, just need to know how to counter them.

I'm not sure bringing the same ship with a PvP fit plus friends really counts as a "counter".

That said Neuts work. The standard cane fits work but you seem to be looking for a 1v1 counter that can kill it in a reasonable time, without the aid of friends, without assuming the Tengu pilot ****s up and gets caught in a stupid situation.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-03-14 23:12:21 UTC
Hardest part is catching the 3b Tengu, they are usually fully boosted and hard to pin down if you keep them from killing your tackle they are relatively easy
Noisrevbus
#38 - 2012-03-14 23:17:02 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:

Sure they do. But in practice their weakness is not the same, and in my opinion not as bad as turrets.


No one is interested in your oppinion, we are interested in reference fact and good arguments.

Also, another Tengu thread Shocked.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-03-14 23:31:58 UTC
Simple fact is that short of another 100mn T3 nothing is fast enough to catch a Tengu can hold it long enough for everything to catch up.

Without a perfect warpin, catching a Tengu that is rolling (sometimes) 3100m/s is an issue because anything that can catch it needs a MWD and that means that the missiles are doing damn near full damage.

So that leaves only a couple ships that can even run the thing down, and weather or not they can hold it long enough for a fleet of battlecruisers to catch up is always hit or miss.

So that leaves catching it on a gate and blobbing before it can get to speed or just take off as it lands.
Noisrevbus
#40 - 2012-03-14 23:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Onictus wrote:
Simple fact is that short of another 100mn T3 nothing is fast enough to catch a Tengu can hold it long enough for everything to catch up.

Without a perfect warpin, catching a Tengu that is rolling (sometimes) 3100m/s is an issue because anything that can catch it needs a MWD and that means that the missiles are doing damn near full damage.

So that leaves only a couple ships that can even run the thing down, and weather or not they can hold it long enough for a fleet of battlecruisers to catch up is always hit or miss.

So that leaves catching it on a gate and blobbing before it can get to speed or just take off as it lands.


Have you ever heard of this wonderful contraption called a dual 1600mm Loki, that can still go 3km/s as while putting dual webs on a Tengu well over it's entire point-range?

They'll pretty much fight each other to a stalemate - and force disengagement - but i doubt you'd be the first to claim this game is balanced around 1v1, or would you Onictus?

On the upside, the very same Loki is definately difficult to blitz for a Tengu who need to escape - it's well difficult even for a sizable group of Tengus. Especially considering them using Missiles, which are quite weak against sig-speed mitigation. Though in some people's oppinion, those are peripheral matters.

Now if only someone would come up with an idea of how to comp those Lokis to deal with multiple Tengus Roll.