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Learning trading, what am I doing wrong?
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Dennmoth Ferdier
Zero Gravity Productions
#1 - 2012-03-11 16:50:01 UTC
I'm just a budding trader wannabe, trying out things what works and what doesn't. At the current trial tho I'm not sure what's wrong and I need your intellect to point it out.


I'm aiming to do trading by sitting in a hub, controlling region wide flow of certain items, having trust in peoples laziness I set buy orders for items that should be moving plenty, mission loot, ammunition, crap and scrap, meta items etc.

I spot these places from the map window, using statistics highlighting, looking for systems with at least 20,000 destroyed faction ships per last 24 hours. Of these systems I pick the ones that are around 8-15 jumps from the hub I'm sitting in order to get that laziness factor working for me. Plan is to have em couriered to the hub when enough stuff is amassed.

However, Having 30+ orders out, I get no input to my buy orders, even though there is no competition and the flow should be constant and quite fast.

Am I to understand I'm either buying wrong items, people aren't lazy enough or I've made some other mistake?

The prices I offer shouldn't be ridiculous for 8-15 jumps to haul for a lazy mission runner.
Whiteknight03
Trilon Industries and Exploration
#2 - 2012-03-11 17:13:29 UTC
Are the buy orders you are placing system or multiple system wide? Because if you only place them at one station (Which, as far as I remember, is all you can do remotely) you may or may not actually have the station people sell their loot at covered.
Dennmoth Ferdier
Zero Gravity Productions
#3 - 2012-03-11 17:23:32 UTC
They are station only.

I went through eve agent finder tho check which stations has seemingly best agents, and focused my buy orders on those.
EmmaFromMarketing
Prospect Theory
#4 - 2012-03-11 17:30:37 UTC
There may well be several factors going on here:

* it may take a while for people to realise that the buy orders are there. This could be true in backwater regions like Devoid e.g. where you wouldn't expect to see high levels of trading, compare this to say The Citadel

* 30 orders isn't alot, there are alot of meta modules and the one's you are trying to buy may be lesser drops in your area. E.g. where there are sansha / blood NPCs and the "best" agents are giving out missions against those NPCs you will get a different range of drops to say predominantly Minnie agents giving missions against Angels.

* people may be using Rita Jita's service, or whoever the new owner is

* even taking all the above into account you need to set the buy orders at the right price. That price you'll need to work out yourself

* as whiteknight said you may not have adequate coverage

* just saw your reply to whiteknight - I would set range to 1 or 2 jumps

The best way to learn trading is by doing it, alot. Without knowing the details of what items, prices, range etc you are using it's hard to give more specific advice.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#5 - 2012-03-11 17:54:03 UTC
your theory is sound, however make sure you are not offering less than the mineral value of the items. Most mission runners will just reprocess low value items and sell the minerals. This is easier than making dozens of sales. Ctrl+A reprocess then sell the mineral stacks. a lot less hassle than checking if each item sells well and looking for good buy orders.

Most mission runners I know do this for simplicity. reprocessing junk loot drops is way easier than then selling them one at a time. Serious mission runners often reprocess junk loot and use the minerals to make what ever ammo they use a lot of. might lose a little isk, but junk loot is all just bonus on top of mission and bounty rewards.

If you are only posting buy orders for meta 5 and faction items than it is most likely do to a low drop rate that you are not getting orders filled.

Personally I keep all faction drops(don't get that many in high sec missions) and most meta 4-5 for making cheap PVP fits.
Johnny Frecko
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-03-11 18:10:40 UTC
2 things.

Item types
range.

you must check if the items are moving, and not assume they do. sometimes an item you'd think will move alot is actually quite dead.
You check that in your "price history" in the market, either table or graph shows how it goes.
It also lets you know the price range an item is going for.

For example, you want to buy X item, it has buy orders for 500K, it sells for 2M, but if you'd check the price history, you'd notice not a single buy order is being filled, meaning the 500K is actually wrong, and you'll never get it filled.

range is the 2nd thing, Sometimes the agents take you 2-3 jumps away, most mission runners have an "HQ" system they run from, and they bring all loot back to that place.

for example, the system botane might have ALOT of ships killed, but no stations, people will take it back to dodixie.

one last thing that comes to mind is your underestimates of the lazyness factor.
people will be lazy enough to sell things 3 even 2 jumps away from the hub you're servicing for a decent price. some won't, some will, but as was stated before. keep checking what works and what doesn't.
Dennmoth Ferdier
Zero Gravity Productions
#7 - 2012-03-11 19:54:26 UTC
Johnny Frecko wrote:
2 things.

Item types
range.

you must check if the items are moving, and not assume they do. sometimes an item you'd think will move alot is actually quite dead.
You check that in your "price history" in the market, either table or graph shows how it goes.
It also lets you know the price range an item is going for.

For example, you want to buy X item, it has buy orders for 500K, it sells for 2M, but if you'd check the price history, you'd notice not a single buy order is being filled, meaning the 500K is actually wrong, and you'll never get it filled.




This is neither doable nor should be the case, as there is no graph to check, mainly because there is no mentionable market activity in the said systems. However, believing blindly on the map statistics, there should be people killing A LOT of rats, which in turn should mean lots of loot.

I had not considered the mineral value issue how ever. Thanks for that tip. I think it might also be due to the short time the orders have been up so far, so people who have are used to not seeing any orders, have not yet noticed there is now availability.

I'll keep at it, slide the pricing and see what happens.
Whiteknight03
Trilon Industries and Exploration
#8 - 2012-03-11 20:21:33 UTC
The way you're making this sound, what with no orders of the item at all, suggests that that item probably doesn't drop commonly in that area. Or at all. For example, you're very unlikely to get meta 4 target painters in blood raider areas. It can happen from the rare guristas mission, but it usually doesn't.

I'd suggest running a few level 4's and seeing what drops out. Then tailor your strategy. Also, system wide or 2-5 jump buy orders are great. People may not process their loot right in the station that they mission from.
Johnny Frecko
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-03-11 23:07:59 UTC
Dennmoth Ferdier wrote:
Johnny Frecko wrote:
2 things.

Item types
range.

you must check if the items are moving, and not assume they do. sometimes an item you'd think will move alot is actually quite dead.
You check that in your "price history" in the market, either table or graph shows how it goes.
It also lets you know the price range an item is going for.

For example, you want to buy X item, it has buy orders for 500K, it sells for 2M, but if you'd check the price history, you'd notice not a single buy order is being filled, meaning the 500K is actually wrong, and you'll never get it filled.




This is neither doable nor should be the case, as there is no graph to check, mainly because there is no mentionable market activity in the said systems. However, believing blindly on the map statistics, there should be people killing A LOT of rats, which in turn should mean lots of loot.

I had not considered the mineral value issue how ever. Thanks for that tip. I think it might also be due to the short time the orders have been up so far, so people who have are used to not seeing any orders, have not yet noticed there is now availability.

I'll keep at it, slide the pricing and see what happens.


Then you're in the wrong market my friend.

Consider this, Most level 4's fill around 1000-1500 cargo space, the average battleship has way less than that. meaning you can't really get all your items from it - you bring a salvager(a noctis normaly, or a noctis alt), you clean the mission up, and get your alt to your HQ system.
now, two options.

1)you repro everything = no items to sell
2)if the system is so dead, you ship all your items to a hub where you can really sell the things.

in either way, you do not stay in that system and sell the stuff. you can just make more shipping it to the hub.

also sometimes people just rat and don't bother picking up most of what drops.
I stick behind the suggestion of a post above me, run some level 4's, see what drops, in what frequency, start by selling your own loot, once you sell your own loot, you'll see your own decisions on how far to go for how much profit, and you'll notice where you pool your items if you run 5-6 a day.

Your logic isn't flawed, but practice makes perfect.
Scion Lex
LEX Investments
#10 - 2012-03-12 05:16:12 UTC
I might be miss understanding what you mean by "no graph" but if there is no regional movement trackable (either ingame or out of game on external sites) then there is no market to speak of unless you are referring to contract sales. Otherwise there would have to be some actual history in order to call it worth your time. Rarely are you going to move into an untapped market...they dont really exist. If no one else is doing it then its probably not worth doing.

You logic isnt flawed but assuming you are going to fill orders where no one else has is.
malaire
#11 - 2012-03-12 08:12:13 UTC
Whiteknight03 wrote:
Are the buy orders you are placing system or multiple system wide? Because if you only place them at one station (Which, as far as I remember, is all you can do remotely) you may or may not actually have the station people sell their loot at covered.

Skill "Visibility" is needed to make remote buy orders with bigger range than just "Station".

Other option is to just travel there and make that buy order locally when you are at that station.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Slavemaster
ICC - Information Control Corporation
#12 - 2012-03-12 23:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Slavemaster
The mistake every new trader does is setting the buy price to low. If you buy below mineral prices with over 30% then they will reprocess. Around 15% below is tha magic number. Its so close to what is worth, and you don't have to push 4-5 buttons. Like reprocess - Sell trit- Sell Pye- Sell mex - Sell x ( You have to check the value of Trit ++ buy on station)

- But, the worse mistake is buying modules where they don't drop. So..... Do level 3 mission, around 30 will give you a good indicator what the "rats" drop

So, with all the loot at station you can put a buy order ranked from low to high. Lets say 12 Mining laser 1 has dropped, but only 1x etc etc. The you press the repross to check what its worth, or use Lex reprocess calculator, or another.

Do it all at a mission hub, but find one where the competitions is lacking. Some mods you can even put back on the marked. And, if ammo is high per unit, buy it at Jita, and transport it there.

+++++

Oo
OfBalance
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-03-12 23:45:05 UTC
malaire wrote:

Other option is to just travel there and make that buy order locally when you are at that station.


Never not stay docked.
EmmaFromMarketing
Prospect Theory
#14 - 2012-03-13 09:34:06 UTC

It is possible to find an untapped market, however, you may not be able to hold on to it for long. I have a practical example:

A while back I was doing some contrarian thinking about the market and came up with my nifty plan. I knew that factions often have stations in the opposing factions regions. So I went to Kador, had a look around, found there were a few Minnie combat agents there, who would inevitably be offering anti-Amarr missions, put up a load of orders for Amarr navy insignias, this is an Amarr region of space, and sat back.

I had checked previously and there had been no market activity on any of these tags in a year or more. Within a few days I was getting my orders filled at silly cheap prices - but then someone noticed and I was back to fighting penny wars.

My point here is that it is possible to find untapped markets but you will have competition soon enough.

However, I would agree with the posters above that it is probably lack of drops or your price point.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-03-13 23:47:38 UTC
Also:

You'll still find lazy people selling everything for whatever price but recent bot kick and those about to come, I hope, changed some basic stuff.

1mth ago I wouldn't sell anything under 400K buy order 15/20% difference with sell order, today I'm not selling whatever under at least 900K and with biggest buy/sell order difference 15%

As long as minerals price go up it's not worthy selling items (even some named)