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How to make pi profitable
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#21 - 2012-03-13 05:30:55 UTC
Maeste Madeveda wrote:
I wonder why people keeps running extractors. There are far more profitable setups of PI and it can rack up several hundred millions on 1 character. It requires low taxes and a rather big money investment (up to 25B for a 3 week cycle) but once you are set up, it's a ISK printing machine.


- Unless you setup at a trade-hub, you can't reliably get the raw materials needed to keep a factory planet humming.

- Factory planets require capital, which new players don't have. Most players with less then 3 months in game still think that 1M ISK is a lot of ISK. Many of them are still struggling to put together 100-200M ISK to outfit their first battleship.

- Harvest worlds are cheap, easy, low-effort, pay off in 7-12 days, and have very little ongoing costs (export tariffs, moving the ECU around). For a new player without access to 10s of millions or a few hundred million ISK in capital, that's a major selling point.
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-03-13 05:47:39 UTC
Also extracting in a WH can be easier than running a factory as there is less material that needs to be jumped in or out of the system...
Twulf
Thunder Clap Industry
#23 - 2012-03-13 16:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Twulf
I just playing around with PI last night in High Sec
New player with less then 2.4m SP

I currently have the following setup
Command center lvl 3
Scanning lvl 1

Storm Plan

1 Extractor unit with 2 heads - Suspended Plasm
1 small factory - Plasmoid
1 storage tank - for Suspended Plas
1 launch pad - storage for both Water adn Plasmoid


1 Extractor unit with 3 heads - Aqueous Liquid
1 small factory - Wat
1 storage tank - for Aqueous Liqui

I am running on 15 hour cycles.
I have a some extra of both Suspended Plasma and Aqueous Liquids left over in the storage tank

I will be setting up a complex for Electrolytes soon as I ca
I will be training commond center lv 4 so I can do T2 production of Superconductors and Coolent

I do have a question, it seems like even at lvl 4 of command center, I will not have enough to run a few T2 factories. I wanted to make both Superconductors and coolent on a single planet but not sure if I will be able to now. Can you build more then one command center on a planet

As I said, I am new, my setup may be wasteful but I am learning. Only way to learn is to do at least for me.

Not looking for a massive ISK marker, just some extra when I do not feel like running mission

So any help or advice would be great. Soon as I get the basics of PI down, I will move it to low sec or null sec but for now High sce only.
ISK for setup is not an issue for me as I have enough ISK for a newbie thanks to PLEX.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#24 - 2012-03-13 17:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: KevLor I
I am not sure I understand your setup, here is what I am thinking would be a setup to make what you are making:

E(3) --->LP<---->P(1) (suspended plasma to plasmoids )

E(3) --->LP<---->P(1) (aqueous liquids to water)


E = Extractor (number of heads)
LP = Launch Pad
P = Processor (number)

You list two storage silos, but I am not sure what their purpose would be on this planet. Your LP should be able to handle all the incoming material on a HS planet. One factor can handle 6,000 units per hour, which is probably way more than one ECU with 2 heads on a hi sec system produces. I have to admit, I do not run HS planets, so maybe on a 1 hour cycle or something you can get that much? Anyway, if you drop the silos, you can get three heads (instead of two) for each ECU. This should help keep your processors from starving quite as badly.

Storm planets are often quite small, so you might also try:
E(3)
|
|. . <---->P(1)
LP
|. . <---->P(1)
|
E(3)

With just one LP, you might then be able to get one or both extractors up to 4 heads OR just stay at three heads but have the ability to move your ECUs around w/o having to move your LP/Processors.

EDIT: In general, and especially on HS extraction planets, you will use a LP for all your storage needs. Silos can be useful in certain situations (mainly when you are not in the system and cannot import/export to the COs), but early in your PI career, assume that they are not needed. Route all P0 to the LP, then to the processors, then back to the LP.

EDIT2: I just noticed that CC Level 3 is Improved, not standard, so you should be able to get up to 5 heads per ECU, I think. It depends on link costs, but it should not be difficult if you ditch the silos.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#25 - 2012-03-13 17:48:18 UTC
Regarding your future plans - you will never want to extract more than two P0s from a single planet, regardless of CC level. With just two P0s, you will be able to make one P2. For your example, superconductors. You CAN change what P0s you are extracting when your first ones become depleted; so, if your super conductor production starts to fall off, you can switch to aqueous liquids and reactive gas and make coolant.

CC4 really just allows you few more heads and maybe some 'mobility' in allowing you to locate ECUs further from your LP.
Kraig2
DTOR Squad
#26 - 2012-03-13 17:58:30 UTC
Snarf Aldes wrote:
I don't think there is any way to make serious isk with PI...
You can however make some relatively easy isk.


Wormhole Space, player owned Custom Office.
People always say WS is the place to get ISK, they aren't lying.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#27 - 2012-03-13 18:34:37 UTC
Everyone has their own definition of "Serious isk", so not sure what that means exactly.

In my w-space system, I used 5 planets to produce approximately 6,000 units of robotics last month. The average selling price was probably around 55k isk each, which would be about 330 mil isk. We have POCOs set at 5%, so 'taxes' were about 37 mil, but this all goes to the corp wallet and helps pay POS fuel costs, so there really is no negative to the tax rate.

My setup ran at about 70% theoretical max output (I could have made around 8,600 robotics), so scaling to 90% to assume you are more dedicated than me, you could make ~425 mil per month on 5 planets. I do have a sixth planet that is making POS fuel (sometimes coolant, sometimes O2) that would add to that bottom line some, possibly even enough to say that one full time toon can buy a PLEX.

Volume wise, you would have between 36k m3 and 52km3 per month, so that is pretty easy to handle. I do need to run to my extraction planets every few days and transfer material to the factory planet every 3 days or so (I can stretch it to four now with creative transfers and silos).

Remember to train your alts to basic PI and you will add to the isk.
Twulf
Thunder Clap Industry
#28 - 2012-03-13 18:50:02 UTC
KevLor I wrote:
I am not sure I understand your setup, here is what I am thinking would be a setup to make what you are making:

E(3) --->LP<---->P(1) (suspended plasma to plasmoids )

E(3) --->LP<---->P(1) (aqueous liquids to water)


E = Extractor (number of heads)
LP = Launch Pad
P = Processor (number)

You list two storage silos, but I am not sure what their purpose would be on this planet. Your LP should be able to handle all the incoming material on a HS planet. One factor can handle 6,000 units per hour, which is probably way more than one ECU with 2 heads on a hi sec system produces. I have to admit, I do not run HS planets, so maybe on a 1 hour cycle or something you can get that much? Anyway, if you drop the silos, you can get three heads (instead of two) for each ECU. This should help keep your processors from starving quite as badly.

Storm planets are often quite small, so you might also try:
E(3)
|
|. . <---->P(1)
LP
|. . <---->P(1)
|
E(3)

With just one LP, you might then be able to get one or both extractors up to 4 heads OR just stay at three heads but have the ability to move your ECUs around w/o having to move your LP/Processors.

EDIT: In general, and especially on HS extraction planets, you will use a LP for all your storage needs. Silos can be useful in certain situations (mainly when you are not in the system and cannot import/export to the COs), but early in your PI career, assume that they are not needed. Route all P0 to the LP, then to the processors, then back to the LP.

EDIT2: I just noticed that CC Level 3 is Improved, not standard, so you should be able to get up to 5 heads per ECU, I think. It depends on link costs, but it should not be difficult if you ditch the silos.


Hmm. yea I was thinking I could setup both Superconductors and coolent on the same planet, this way I could jsut have a single planet for now until I want to get more indepth with PI. I was thinking that making two P1 outputs would not be hard with only 3 P0 inputs needed for them but I guess it will not work the way I had planned which is too bad.

I use the storage units because I figured I would fill up the LP quickly if I was dumping both P0 and P1 units in it.
The planet is one jump from my home station (missions and such).

I have left over suspended plasma at 15 hour cycles with one basic factory so I am not sure why I would need another head.
I have a little left over aqueous liquids with 3 heads and one basic factory. I see what your saying and I think I will try the LP setup with our storage for a bit and see how that goes. Trying to make it as automated as I can as combat is my primary focus for now.
Twulf
Thunder Clap Industry
#29 - 2012-03-13 18:52:37 UTC
KevLor I wrote:
Regarding your future plans - you will never want to extract more than two P0s from a single planet, regardless of CC level. With just two P0s, you will be able to make one P2. For your example, superconductors. You CAN change what P0s you are extracting when your first ones become depleted; so, if your super conductor production starts to fall off, you can switch to aqueous liquids and reactive gas and make coolant.

CC4 really just allows you few more heads and maybe some 'mobility' in allowing you to locate ECUs further from your LP.


I am not sure I understand this. The reactive gas I need is not very close to my current ECU setup.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#30 - 2012-03-13 19:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: KevLor I
Your leftover P0 may disappear quickly when/if the planet depletes, which it may do under a pretty aggressive program cycle (15 hrs is relatively aggressive). For most people, either very short cycles (1 or 2 hours) or ~1 day increment cycles seem to be most popular. If you get online at the same time each day, set your cycle for 23 hours and restart every day when you get online. This may result in less 'excess' P0 for the same P1, and a tiny bit less depletion.

With an Improved CC (Level 3, if I am getting the naming right), you likely can set up to ECUs with 4 heads each, one LP, and 2 sets of 2 processors (4 total), and a single P2 processor. It will depend on the length of your links. It is unlikely that you can get 2xP2 processors on an Improved CC (unless your P0s are really close and it is a small planet), but you will probably be able to easily do it with and Advanced CC.

Quote:
I am not sure I understand this. The reactive gas I need is not very close to my current ECU setup.

If your 'new' P0 materials are not close to your ECU, you may have to relocate it (which costs some isk, but not a ton). If you have excess grid, you can locate the ECU pretty far away and still link it to you LP. If you are really industrious, scan both the current and projected P0s while you are setting up and see if you can't find an ECU location that will cover them both.

When/if you get to CC4, a 2xECU(4) + LP + 2xP1 Processors (2) + P2 Processors (2) setup will leave about 2,000 grid for links.
Twulf
Thunder Clap Industry
#31 - 2012-03-13 19:22:06 UTC
KevLor I wrote:
Your leftover P0 may disappear quickly when/if the planet depletes, which it may do under a pretty aggressive program cycle (15 hrs is relatively aggressive). For most people, either very short cycles (1 or 2 hours) or ~1 day increment cycles seem to be most popular. If you get online at the same time each day, set your cycle for 23 hours and restart every day when you get online. This may result in less 'excess' P0 for the same P1, and a tiny bit less depletion.

With an Improved CC (Level 3, if I am getting the naming right), you likely can set up to ECUs with 4 heads each, one LP, and 2 sets of 2 processors (4 total), and a single P2 processor. It will depend on the length of your links. It is unlikely that you can get 2xP2 processors on an Improved CC (unless your P0s are really close and it is a small planet), but you will probably be able to easily do it with and Advanced CC.

Quote:
I am not sure I understand this. The reactive gas I need is not very close to my current ECU setup.

If your 'new' P0 materials are not close to your ECU, you may have to relocate it (which costs some isk, but not a ton). If you have excess grid, you can locate the ECU pretty far away and still link it to you LP. If you are really industrious, scan both the current and projected P0s while you are setting up and see if you can't find an ECU location that will cover them both.

When/if you get to CC4, a 2xECU(4) + LP + 2xP1 Processors (2) + P2 Processors (2) setup will leave about 2,000 grid for links.


Thanks, you have been a big help. I am getting to better understand now.
I will be re doing my planet when I get home tonight.

Always did love the community here in EVE. It might be a PvP first game but the community is helpful for the most part, right before they blow your ship up at least.
Maeste Madeveda
The Spawning Pool
#32 - 2012-03-14 00:58:22 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Maeste Madeveda wrote:
I wonder why people keeps running extractors. There are far more profitable setups of PI and it can rack up several hundred millions on 1 character. It requires low taxes and a rather big money investment (up to 25B for a 3 week cycle) but once you are set up, it's a ISK printing machine.


- Unless you setup at a trade-hub, you can't reliably get the raw materials needed to keep a factory planet humming.

- Factory planets require capital, which new players don't have. Most players with less then 3 months in game still think that 1M ISK is a lot of ISK. Many of them are still struggling to put together 100-200M ISK to outfit their first battleship.

- Harvest worlds are cheap, easy, low-effort, pay off in 7-12 days, and have very little ongoing costs (export tariffs, moving the ECU around). For a new player without access to 10s of millions or a few hundred million ISK in capital, that's a major selling point.

I am sure my situation is particular because my corp owns several POCO and has the means to defend it should someone decide to siege it. Still it's dumb to keep saying that the sole profitable PI is extractor setup. Far more profitable setup awaits those who have the courage to go to low-sec and that should be the goal for those wishing to keep doing better PI.

I can assure you that I have no trouble fetching all the materials I need for my PI in Jita. It requires time and market knowledge but nothing out of the ordinary.

In fact I will try the mystical 'make a PLEX in 51days' soon with only PI.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#33 - 2012-03-14 03:31:35 UTC
Quote:
It requires time[...]

That is the part I am avoiding. If you have alts doing it, I just want to log on every couple of days, restart programs, fetch goods, and drop them off in corp hangar. I don't want to haul anything out to my planets from Jita or mess with buy orders, nor change my setups to 'catch' nice markups as they appear and disappear.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#34 - 2012-03-14 09:16:55 UTC
Snarf Aldes wrote:
I don't think there is any way to make serious isk with PI...
You can however make some relatively easy isk.


Well.... I do PI in a wormhole with a number of alts and make 100+ mil a day on it for about 45 min of effort daily. I don't know if that's big isk in your book but it makes me happy. Nicest part about it is you can train alts for PI in a couple of weeks so you can do it with all of the toons you otherwise wouldn't be using. YYMV

T-
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#35 - 2012-03-14 09:19:01 UTC
oops. double post
WolfeReign
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-03-14 18:38:06 UTC
With 1 character running 6 planets i can produce over 3k rocket fuel a day and still have plenty of P1 left over. So ya some serious isk out here in WH space if you know what to do with your pi :)
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#37 - 2012-03-15 23:41:17 UTC
Maeste Madeveda wrote:
In fact I will try the mystical 'make a PLEX in 51days' soon with only PI.


I don't know what's so mystical about it. I do it on a regular basis. And I even do it in high sec. :P

Oh, as per my previous example last page, I finally finished producing P2s out of my leftover P1s. I gave myself another 100 million, so my total after 5 weeks is about 1 billion in profit.

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#38 - 2012-03-16 00:26:26 UTC
Maeste Madeveda wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Maeste Madeveda wrote:
I wonder why people keeps running extractors. There are far more profitable setups of PI and it can rack up several hundred millions on 1 character. It requires low taxes and a rather big money investment (up to 25B for a 3 week cycle) but once you are set up, it's a ISK printing machine.


- Unless you setup at a trade-hub, you can't reliably get the raw materials needed to keep a factory planet humming.

- Factory planets require capital, which new players don't have. Most players with less then 3 months in game still think that 1M ISK is a lot of ISK. Many of them are still struggling to put together 100-200M ISK to outfit their first battleship.

- Harvest worlds are cheap, easy, low-effort, pay off in 7-12 days, and have very little ongoing costs (export tariffs, moving the ECU around). For a new player without access to 10s of millions or a few hundred million ISK in capital, that's a major selling point.

I am sure my situation is particular because my corp owns several POCO and has the means to defend it should someone decide to siege it. Still it's dumb to keep saying that the sole profitable PI is extractor setup. Far more profitable setup awaits those who have the courage to go to low-sec and that should be the goal for those wishing to keep doing better PI.

I can assure you that I have no trouble fetching all the materials I need for my PI in Jita. It requires time and market knowledge but nothing out of the ordinary.

In fact I will try the mystical 'make a PLEX in 51days' soon with only PI.
I'd like to see your results. I did that and have documented the 1st 21 days. Link

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Twulf
Thunder Clap Industry
#39 - 2012-03-16 17:11:52 UTC
Just to update on my setup since you guys have been a big help.

I now switched over to coolant as my P2 product and moved to a gas planet.

So now I have
2 ECU with 4 heads each
2 proccessors - 1 for each P0 good
1 Advance factory for P2 good
All using the LP as the storage

The links cost more because I had to spread out the ECU this time on a gas planet but it is running good now.
KevLor I
Zephyr Corp
#40 - 2012-03-16 17:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: KevLor I
Your total grid load due to facilities is 12,600, which leaves 2,400 (for CC3) for links. That is quite a bit, but if you are on a gas planet, you might need it. How big (diameter) is your planet? My (Very rough) estimate indicates you have 13k or 14k km of links if you are running out of grid. You can also make coolant on a storm planet, which tends to be much smaller. If you were to go to CC4, you could basically add two new heads on each ECU, although that might overload your processors. If it did overload the processors, you could lengthen program time and still get the same yield with less depletion. Alternatively, instead of adding heads, you could add one of each P1 processor and another P2 processor and decrease cycle time to drive extraction harder.

Remember, too, to balance out your P0 yields if one ECU is getting a lot more production with 4 heads than the other, you can re-balance them to 3 and 5 heads so that production might be closer to equal.
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