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How balanced are tier 3 BC's?

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Dengen Krastinov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-03-13 11:02:05 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The oracle dosen't have anything like enough CPU for you to be able to fit it in a way that is actually remtoely effective.


You're so wrong Roll
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-03-13 11:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Mfume Apocal wrote:
The problem with the Naga is it has horribad tracking. In the one real fight I got with them, they were unable to track a (well-flown) Huginn under 40km.

At first (on SiSi), I was a fan of the Tornado, then after they hit TQ the Tornado looked worse and worse. ACs are... well, ACs and project DPS fairly poorly even with a falloff bonus. Arties can't track intelligently flown HACs/recons/logis, even MWDing Muninns at 30km-ish. Nagas out-range them, Talos out-DPSes them at relevant small gang ranges, Oracles put out more DPS and do it further.

That's my opinion anyway.



I've had the best luck in mixed fleets with the AC's, of course I also tend to run it dual TE and a tracking computer. Gives you around 75-80km optimal + falloff. Otherwise you hit it on the head, that was why I said that putting a point on is silly they are great 40+ km out, anything closer is silly because they just can't track anything that doesn't have a drakes sig radius under 30km.

With Tornado and Naga the idea is to stay way the **** out and just rewarp if anything gets close.

We have a few FC's that are nado/naga fans and another that is all about pulse oracles.

The oracles were the gang that started the LXQ2 goofiness a bit back. That was under 40 DPS that dropped a tracking titan before anyone could batphone to save it.
welsh wizard
Celestial Fish Inc.
#63 - 2012-03-13 12:31:39 UTC
Is a Blaga a realistic concept or does it get screwed by grid requirements? I'm at work so can't really check it out.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-03-13 12:32:49 UTC
welsh wizard wrote:
Is a Blaga a realistic concept or does it get screwed by grid requirements? I'm at work so can't really check it out.



Blaga gets screwed by speed more than grid, it can fit a rack of neutrons pretty easily.
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#65 - 2012-03-13 14:09:47 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
For small gang, Oracle is the best assuming you have adequate tackle/anti-tackle (Tier 2 BCs do this well), otherwise the Talos. Tornado is in between the two extremes IMO - not enough gank (less DPS than an equivalent Oracle fit at every range) but it has the ability to fit a point whilst still being fast and having a credible shield tank (same as an Arty Cane). Naga's lack of lows really hurt it - not enough to fit nanos as well as a respectable amount of damage mods, both of which are required.



Putting a point on a Tornado is ....ironically...pointless IMO.

Its guns blow inside point range, if you need points use a tier 2 they are a hell of a lot better suited to that sort of work. On the outside the glass cannon 1400mm Nado is a nasty bastard when you can basically one shot damn near anything with 5 of them on a target.

Likewise Naga, that thing hits like a truck when you take into account that its damage and range bonused, and can sling anti-matter 70km with vollies in the upper 2k range....low slots or no. Not to mention that Naga has no need to compromise tank like the other three to fit long range guns, they have the best chance short of the Oracle to survive taking a couple hits.

It depends on application, I was less than impressed with the Talos out of the all three of them. In small gang (sub 20) I'm a big fan of my AC Tornado, assuming its some sort of fleet that isn't going to be gate humping.

A number of our FCs won't let a Talos in the fleet.


If your idea of small gang is <20, then I can see your problem with fitting an AC Nado with a point and with a Talos.

As much damage as a Rail Naga does at 70km+, it really has no chance of hitting frigates at all, whereas the Pulse Oracle, AC Nado can with appropriate support or good positioning, which the Naga cannot maneuver into due to its lack of low slots meaning fitting nanos is a bad idea.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#66 - 2012-03-13 15:24:22 UTC
Onictus wrote:
A number of our FCs won't let a Talos in the fleet.


You have some really bad FCs then - at least for small gangs. The Talos is unquestionably the best Tier 3 for small gang combat, but the Oracle scales a bit better because it has better damage projection.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-03-13 19:39:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:
A number of our FCs won't let a Talos in the fleet.


You have some really bad FCs then - at least for small gangs. The Talos is unquestionably the best Tier 3 for small gang combat, but the Oracle scales a bit better because it has better damage projection.

-Liang



Our small gang requires range...

Pulse oracle > Talos in an armor gang.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#68 - 2012-03-13 19:56:30 UTC
I too believe that the Talos is slow and must be at 3km to deal damage.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-03-13 20:10:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I too believe that the Talos is slow and must be at 3km to deal damage.

-Liang



No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#70 - 2012-03-13 20:21:04 UTC
Onictus wrote:

No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.


Funny, but you get much above 5-10 people (where the Talos remains extremely powerful) and we're no longer in the small gang region. Roll

-Liang

Ed: Also, let me know how your 3 SeBo Tornado tanks a Proteus landing on it at zero. My Talos did fine.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-03-13 20:21:21 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I too believe that the Talos is slow and must be at 3km to deal damage.

-Liang



No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.


I think Liang is about to introduce you to Null. I haven't used a Null Talos, but ten seconds in EFT gives 16/29 km and just under 900 DPS. Does look a bit flimsy though. What?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#72 - 2012-03-13 20:23:31 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:

I think Liang is about to introduce you to Null. I haven't used a Null Talos, but ten seconds in EFT gives 16/29 km and just under 900 DPS. Does look a bit flimsy though. What?


Yes, Null is pretty pimp and is the default ammo in my Talos. Also confirming the Talos is very flimsy:
- https://vimeo.com/34665420
- https://vimeo.com/35131824
- https://vimeo.com/35642474
- https://vimeo.com/38352770

Blink

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-03-13 20:24:19 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I too believe that the Talos is slow and must be at 3km to deal damage.

-Liang



No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.


I think Liang is about to introduce you to Null. I haven't used a Null Talos, but ten seconds in EFT gives 16/29 km and just under 900 DPS. Does look a bit flimsy though. What?



Yeah scorch, gives you 55+10 or something silly like that, and an oracle CAN fit a 1600mm plate and big pulses.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#74 - 2012-03-13 20:26:36 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Yeah scorch, gives you 55+10 or something silly like that, and an oracle CAN fit a 1600mm plate and big pulses.


I can see how well your 1600mm plated Oracles work: http://rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=35897

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2012-03-13 20:26:56 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:

No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.


Funny, but you get much above 5-10 people (where the Talos remains extremely powerful) and we're no longer in the small gang region. Roll

-Liang

Ed: Also, let me know how your 3 SeBo Tornado tanks a Proteus landing on it at zero. My Talos did fine.



Got a running start?

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-03-13 20:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Yeah scorch, gives you 55+10 or something silly like that, and an oracle CAN fit a 1600mm plate and big pulses.


I can see how well your 1600mm plated Oracles work: http://rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=35897

-Liang



LOL

For real, three to one odds against faction BS with triage back up and that is the best you got?

How about LXQ2 where they dropped a titan? http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12588868
xxMads
Malicious Intentions.
#77 - 2012-03-13 20:29:56 UTC
CCP should create tier 4 BS's with similar bonuses as Tier 3 BC's, just with Capital guns??
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#78 - 2012-03-13 20:30:43 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:

No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.


Funny, but you get much above 5-10 people (where the Talos remains extremely powerful) and we're no longer in the small gang region. Roll

-Liang

Ed: Also, let me know how your 3 SeBo Tornado tanks a Proteus landing on it at zero. My Talos did fine.



Got a running start?



No, he landed on me at zero with me pretty much sitting still. You can see it in the video link I posted. In fact, you might learn a lot about how to fly a Talos from watching my noob ass fly it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-03-13 20:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:

No, its faster than an oracle, but it doesn't have the power past 30km, and if it does its a shield "tank" which is laughable on the scale of a 3 SeBo Tornado.

Its great under 5 people, but that is about it.


Funny, but you get much above 5-10 people (where the Talos remains extremely powerful) and we're no longer in the small gang region. Roll

-Liang

Ed: Also, let me know how your 3 SeBo Tornado tanks a Proteus landing on it at zero. My Talos did fine.



Got a running start?



No, he landed on me at zero with me pretty much sitting still. You can see it in the video link I posted. In fact, you might learn a lot about how to fly a Talos from watching my noob ass fly it.

-Liang


Magic 8 ball says odds are not good, simply because its not worth trying to get the hull out to where I live.



Edit:

I'm sorry my idea of small gang and yours differ. Tough ****.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#80 - 2012-03-13 20:33:59 UTC
Onictus wrote:

LOL

For real, three to one odds against faction BS with triage back up and that is the best you got?

How about LXQ2 where they dropped a titan? http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12588868


So squeezing 75 people onto a KM is small gang warfare these days? Maybe that's why you don't like blaster ships....

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.