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Mad inflation

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#281 - 2012-03-12 22:55:47 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:



You do realize speculation on Drone bounties and a war themed expansion are causing people to stock up right?


That explains the last few days, not the last few months.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#282 - 2012-03-12 22:55:48 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
The real solution is not to try to pin the nerf to one specific area of the game, as there isn't a specific mechanic causing the inflation singularly. It's to do an all around slight nerf to income, which will result in a net no-change to people's wealth.

The thing that's not helping is people trying to bandwagon this as another nerf-highsec thread.


Agree that all income could use a nerf.

But no, highsec needs a massive income nerf, in fact. They're just flooding the game with isk, while barely dying/losing anything. The end result is finacial muscles for highsec nullbears, while the nullsec sovholding (supposedly this games endgame), the expenses involved in setting up the logistics and infrastructure will be even harder on the nullbear income (as money is less worth/financial powerbears drives up prices) gets less appealing. I doubt very many players in this game actually enjoy the blobby lagfests, if it's not about building empire/making isk, there's zero reason to go to null, roaming smallscale PvP is nearly dead as is.

This game is currently purely about carebearing, and whoever makes most money will be in the driving seat for the future. It makes absolutely zero sense, whatsoever, that people who take near-no-risk at all, is making big sums of isk. That should be reserved for the people who expose themselves, who put in countless of hours and hard work in fighting over space, logistics, infrastructure investments, etc. Not just from a moral point of view, it also makes sense financially, as these guys will be supporting the economy as a whole (isk rotation).

I tried to write tihs on a ABC123-economy level, so more people actually understand what is happening in this game. We've had highsec missioning alts since 2007 (or so), and it hasn't had these severe impacts on the game previously. The changes we had for highsec recently tho is; a) bigger highsec population (who don't take part in PvP, in fact I know alot of players of 2009-2011-age who don't want to do anything but sit in highsec and amass isk and never spend it), and b) Incursions.

Does it seem like this highsec population, and the incursion income, has a positive impact on the economy to you? Would these threads exist? Would CCP indirectly admit there is an issue, by posting they are monitoring it and considering changes? It's quite obvious there is an issue with NPC-spawned isk, and it's a clear relation to the highsec population.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#283 - 2012-03-12 22:56:06 UTC
we're not the only ones opposed to it we're just the best posters dwi m8s

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#284 - 2012-03-12 22:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Misanth wrote:
people who take near-no-risk at all


no, you see, high-sec incursions are the riskiest PvE in the game because horrible logi pilots might mess up and you might lose your ship to NPCs

This is why people fly officer-fit machariels, they enjoy losing them to rats

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Endeavour Starfleet
#285 - 2012-03-12 23:02:07 UTC
Andski wrote:
Also it's very clear that only Goons are opposed to easy ISK in highsec


Some goons you mean. Mit likes Incursions.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#286 - 2012-03-12 23:02:47 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Andski wrote:
Also it's very clear that only Goons are opposed to easy ISK in highsec


Some goons you mean. Mit likes Incursions.


Incursions are only in high-sec apparently????

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#287 - 2012-03-12 23:03:19 UTC
Andski wrote:
we're not the only ones opposed to it we're just the best posters dwi m8s


If you were the best posters about it, there would he no confusion on your motivation for the Incursion and other nerfs. But please, keep up the acronyms. They make you look intelligent and not lazy... right?
fgft Athonille
Doomheim
#288 - 2012-03-12 23:04:58 UTC
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We're looking at the economy constantly and looking at our options.

One of the fundamental issues we have is that we're making everyone "better" at making money, so the effect kind of snowballs. Right now we're considering everything form increasing taxes to lowering bounties across the board.


Or just remove incursions.


yah telling the creator of incursions to take them out is going to work
Zircon Dasher
#289 - 2012-03-12 23:05:20 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
You do realize speculation on Drone bounties and a war themed expansion are causing people to stock up right?


Not to mention the season.

Endeavor Starfleet wrote:
Except that wont be able to count the other factors that affect those fleets. It is not simple to factor VGs.


Oh i agree that there are many factors that might effect the decision of which sites to run. I am not saying that it will absolutely happen. All I am saying is that IF people move into the higher ranked sites, more people could "do incursions" before isk/hr rates became seriously degraded (where it is more profitable to run missions for example). Assuming that post-change vg are still better isk/hr than missions in the first place.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Sunviking
Doomheim
#290 - 2012-03-12 23:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunviking
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Tippia wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally.
You're going to have to elaborate on that one a bit.

Kile Kitmoore wrote:
Finally, NOW can we please stop the nerf Incursion threads!
Nope.
Quote:
As for the inflation, you wanted a mining buff here it is! Trit selling at 5 ISK a pop! Nice!
Inflation is not a mining buff since it doesn't mean mining is more worth-while.


Someone already posted the numbers, the majority of isk in EVE comes off bounties and if anything, we should be reviewing the current bounties on battleship NPCs.


I would prefer not to see NPC bounties nerfed. If anything, just make NPC rats tougher to kill, so only the people with the best equipment and skills can kill them as easily as they can now.

When I see a Pith Usurper or a Core Lord Admiral, I expect it to put up a bit more of a fight Evil
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#291 - 2012-03-12 23:07:31 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Andski wrote:
we're not the only ones opposed to it we're just the best posters dwi m8s


If you were the best posters about it, there would he no confusion on your motivation for the Incursion and other nerfs. But please, keep up the acronyms. They make you look intelligent and not lazy... right?


says the FHC poster

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#292 - 2012-03-12 23:10:08 UTC
Sunviking wrote:
I would prefer not to see NPC bounties nerfed. If anything, just make NPC rats tougher to kill, so only the people with the best equipment and skills can kill them as easily as they can now.

When I see a Pith Usurper or a Core Lord Admiral, I expect it to put up a bit more of a fight Evil


Yes only a supercarrier should be able to kill deadspace rats right?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Sunviking
Doomheim
#293 - 2012-03-12 23:14:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
Sunviking wrote:
I would prefer not to see NPC bounties nerfed. If anything, just make NPC rats tougher to kill, so only the people with the best equipment and skills can kill them as easily as they can now.

When I see a Pith Usurper or a Core Lord Admiral, I expect it to put up a bit more of a fight Evil


Yes only a supercarrier should be able to kill deadspace rats right?


No, not at all.

Just make them a bit tougher, with a bit more EWAR like neuting etc.
Zircon Dasher
#294 - 2012-03-12 23:16:43 UTC
Andski wrote:
Yes only a supercarrier should be able to kill deadspace rats right?


Funny how making this the case would not change a large number of players ship choice in null.



And also why any argument that starts with: "highsec incursions are risk free!" is a joke. Highsecers field shiny machs. Many in nullsec field supercarriers and titans.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#295 - 2012-03-12 23:21:24 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
No, that's incorrect. The massive jumps we see in terms of isk almost always come when we make adjustments to anomalies. The last change we did was pretty drastically increase the isk floor across the board on anomalies and the isk coming into the economy jumped after that.



--- Thread


No. That doesn't help the issue whatsoever. We need massive isk sinks across the board, especially in highsec as they don't spend nearly enough of what they're making.

A good balance of income would be that for every X isk that you make, you spend Y %. It would be very interesting to see the balances among these numbers. Right now for example I have several friends, or friends friends, who joined EVE last few years. Some of them have not lost a single ship, no modules, others a ship of two. They buy expensive modules on contract, but they don't participate on the market. I.e. they barely take have any isk leaving the game through isk sinks. Meanwhile, they have massive stocks of isk, at near-zero risk, and they can easily dominate the players who take risks.

The total number of expenses will always be higher for the null- and lowsec population, compared to highsec (as they have no expenses to talk about). That should reflect on the income in highsec. If someon wants to live in highsec because they enjoy that playstyle, I think it's great, make incursions/missions as fun as possible. But it makes absolutely zero sense, neither from an economist, a game designer, or moral point of view, that these players should make money too. That should be reserved for the players who actually spend them.

You've mistaken this as a 'hate incursion' thread. This thread is question the inflation, and certain lifestyles in this game is currently counterproductive to the games wellbeing, and possible long-term future. People who want highsec incomes to be anything more than 'small', are by default trying to destroy this game. It's that simple. People who don't participate in isk sink activiies (market PvPers, industrialists, etc, are part of this, much love to them) are simply destroying this game. That is: almost exclusively highsec Incursion- and missionrunners.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#296 - 2012-03-12 23:22:32 UTC
Andski wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Andski wrote:
we're not the only ones opposed to it we're just the best posters dwi m8s


If you were the best posters about it, there would he no confusion on your motivation for the Incursion and other nerfs. But please, keep up the acronyms. They make you look intelligent and not lazy... right?


says the FHC poster


Says the K.com poster. Your move chump.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#297 - 2012-03-12 23:22:38 UTC
This thread really needs to be cleaned from all the idiots that don't understand what an ISK faucet is vs. paying another play ISK for goods and services.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#298 - 2012-03-12 23:25:58 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Eso Es wrote:
Gogela wrote:

Read this and then read this. You clearly haven't read a thing I've said.

My point is precisely that anywhere the EvE system is paying people directly in ISK for something there is a problem. I don't want to nerf incursions. I want to remove all EvE system ISK payouts entirely and replace them with something you can sell on the market. It's the only way to achieve any kind of balance that doesn't require CCP to constantly intervene. My point isn't moot you just didn't read anything in this thread.

BTW - I get raises in EvE every day the market inflates. So do most people. The only people who's paychecks don't keep pace with inflation are people who play exclusively PvE content. Your knowledge of market mechanics explains why you keep getting passed up for that raise...


Sorry for missing your post in the 9 page wall of text that is this thread :S So people that make money off other players receive "raises" for their efforst, and people being paid by CCP do not, makes sense. Are you still saying that Hi Sec Incursions haven't lead to the crazy amounts of inflation being reported on these forums? (Sure botters have contributed, but I still point my finger to the risk free ISK faucet that is Hi Sec Incursions.) On a somewhat unrelated theme, you also have to consider this thread. Nothing to do with inflation, but again, Incursions are terrible for the EVE universe for more than just inflation.


No... that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter, and you can't pull Incursions out of the equation and isolate them and blame everything on them. A moderate rate of inflation is actually healthy for this economy and is to be expected from the way the EvE market functions. Runaway inflation is the risk of any mechanic that pays a player directly in ISK. If the market cannot control or even influence a source of ISK, than hell yes inflation is going to accelerate!

OK... so here is why I am getting miffed: people are isolating their own mechanic of choice and trying to blame runaway inflation on that. It's the botters, or it's the missions, or it's the null NPCs, or... in your case... it's Incursions. All of these mechanics are doing the SAME DAMN THING and that is give players ISK - which is given it's relative value by the MARKET - directly, and without any regard for how the market has valued the ISK. I mean this is economics 101 stuff! Where is CCP's economist? Doesn't that guy take a look at anything? Doesn't he have a DOCTORATE in this smack? If a RL comparison must be made I would say EvE is like an emerging market. If you keep giving people ISK for nothing the economy is going to react like Germany's did in the 30's or Greece's looks right now. It's not sustainable, because (in our context) the NPCs think they control the market and can just print ISK without producing anything, which is in effect a tax on the rest of us through inflation. The problem is, as with Greece, there's only so much the free economy can sustain until the ISK is devalued so much it is worthless. Now in EvE, we have the ability to do something NO OTHER ECONOMY can reasonably do... and that is reverse the process. Specifically, instead of paying for Incursions in ISK, we pay in something else.

As a hypothetical, what if there was some new component required in every ships hull. What if in order to build anything, you needed "Element-X'. Now what if Element-X was paid by NPCs to mission runners or incursion fleets? What if the amount of element-X entering the game was pegged to the production of the element zydrine, and pilots only received their fraction of the total pot for the work they did that day missioning or whatever on a percentage basis? All of a sudden, you would have the market regulating ALL of the ISK faucets in the game. Now don't get caught up in details. It doesn't have to be called "Element-X" and it doesn't need to be integrated into industry in that way. I'm just saying if all this free ISK goes away and you are given something else for your effort (f***ing LP points or whatever) everything WILL take care of itself. The market will self regulate and balance itself and missions, rats, and incursions will pay as much as they can for the number of people running them, adjust accordingly like it does now with mining or anything else, and CCP won't have to do a damn thing about it ever again.



Yup, this is exactly what I been trying to point out as well.

There's no reason to make the game less fun for playstyle A or B, there's no hate towards C or D. It's just basic economy 101.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#299 - 2012-03-12 23:32:15 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Andski wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Andski wrote:
we're not the only ones opposed to it we're just the best posters dwi m8s


If you were the best posters about it, there would he no confusion on your motivation for the Incursion and other nerfs. But please, keep up the acronyms. They make you look intelligent and not lazy... right?


says the FHC poster


Says the K.com poster. Your move chump.


i have like 10 posts on kugu?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#300 - 2012-03-12 23:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Andski wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Andski wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Andski wrote:
we're not the only ones opposed to it we're just the best posters dwi m8s


If you were the best posters about it, there would he no confusion on your motivation for the Incursion and other nerfs. But please, keep up the acronyms. They make you look intelligent and not lazy... right?


says the FHC poster


Says the K.com poster. Your move chump.


i have like 10 posts on kugu?


And all ten are really terrible mate. Tell you what. I will stop making fun of your terrible posting if you actually go back to the original topic here.

You, Goons and all other null players are more than capable of making high sec Incursions risky. How come you don't?