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Mad inflation

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Eso Es
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2012-03-12 20:42:28 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Eso Es wrote:
Gogela wrote:
"Inflation!"

"Why you keep using that word... I do not think it meaans what you think it means."

Look, inflation hurts only a few classes of people: Old People, Children, people on some types of welfare or fixed income, and the poor.

What do they have in common? Unemployment.

You have a job in EvE... we all do. Inflation is a non-factor because everyone (but people who only play NPCs and f-em anyway) will see their income go up proportionally with the inflation of the currency. It's totally a non-issue!



Except if the payment for said job doesn't rise with the rising costs of things, your point is moot. When was the last time you got a "raise" in EVE. Level 4s pay the same as they ever did, yet everything costs more.

Edit: Ok fine "industrialists" might get raises, but marketeers (assuming price margin remains the same even though the actual price of an item rises), mission runners, and ratters don't see any increase in the rewards for their effots.

Bottomline: Nerfhammer Incursions PLEASE

Read this and then read this. You clearly haven't read a thing I've said.

My point is precisely that anywhere the EvE system is paying people directly in ISK for something there is a problem. I don't want to nerf incursions. I want to remove all EvE system ISK payouts entirely and replace them with something you can sell on the market. It's the only way to achieve any kind of balance that doesn't require CCP to constantly intervene. My point isn't moot you just didn't read anything in this thread.

BTW - I get raises in EvE every day the market inflates. So do most people. The only people who's paychecks don't keep pace with inflation are people who play exclusively PvE content. Your knowledge of market mechanics explains why you keep getting passed up for that raise...


Sorry for missing your post in the 9 page wall of text that is this thread :S So people that make money off other players receive "raises" for their efforst, and people being paid by CCP do not, makes sense. Are you still saying that Hi Sec Incursions haven't lead to the crazy amounts of inflation being reported on these forums? (Sure botters have contributed, but I still point my finger to the risk free ISK faucet that is Hi Sec Incursions.) On a somewhat unrelated theme, you also have to consider this thread. Nothing to do with inflation, but again, Incursions are terrible for the EVE universe for more than just inflation.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#182 - 2012-03-12 20:43:12 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What make you think we dont?

We simply do not police for CCP.


You had better get started then eh? Considering their next step is to nerf bounties. If nullsec folks can report blue bots and people get serious about reporting hisec bots. Inflation may be able to be stopped. Or atleast slowed to acceptable levels.



Removing bots will do very little to stop the massive inflation going on.
Endeavour Starfleet
#183 - 2012-03-12 20:44:55 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
The real solution is not to try to pin the nerf to one specific area of the game, as there isn't a specific mechanic causing the inflation singularly. It's to do an all around slight nerf to income, which will result in a net no-change to people's wealth.

The thing that's not helping is people trying to bandwagon this as another nerf-highsec thread.



The solution is to get serious about botting with more incentive to go PVP.

#1 Encourage reporting of blue bots.
#2 More wormholes into nullsec so the shield wall can be bypassed easier.
#3 One time payment for Clone grade (Who wants to PVP defensively when it costs a ton for an experienced player to replace his clone grade? You get alot more isk sink from his ship going pop)
#4 Implementation of a vastly modular POS and Corp system to isolate thieves and spiez. (To give smaller groups without 20 POS a chance)
Endeavour Starfleet
#184 - 2012-03-12 20:45:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What make you think we dont?

We simply do not police for CCP.


You had better get started then eh? Considering their next step is to nerf bounties. If nullsec folks can report blue bots and people get serious about reporting hisec bots. Inflation may be able to be stopped. Or atleast slowed to acceptable levels.



Removing bots will do very little to stop the massive inflation going on.


ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked

Are you serious? Or are you a botter yourself?
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#185 - 2012-03-12 20:45:52 UTC
How about nerfing both incursions (more LP, much les isk - especially in high sec) and bounties (harder nerf for high sec than low and null - possibly increase salvage to compensate)?

FIxes the risk reward scale and inflation.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#186 - 2012-03-12 20:46:17 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just curious, are there any numbers for what bounty isk facets were like pre-incursions for comparison? I'm curious to see how much isk influx from other activities decreased if any as a result of their introduction.


I think you can go check out Tippia's rants for some numbers gathered from dev posts all over the forums throughout the years. IIRC missions and bounties have basically remained unchanged for years while Incursions provide what amounts to a wholly new ISK faucet.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Serene Repose
#187 - 2012-03-12 20:48:11 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We're looking at the economy constantly and looking at our options.

One of the fundamental issues we have is that we're making everyone "better" at making money, so the effect kind of snowballs. Right now we're considering everything form increasing taxes to lowering bounties across the board.

Only problem with doing both of these is, they must be in conjunction with controlling the money supply or they only reduce the amount of inflation over time, not the existence of it. Also, you lose the effort/reward feature of "playing a game." ISK is how we keep score. Mess with bounties too much and the value of mission running suffers.

This is the proverbial rock and a hard place because the EVE economy isn't really an economy. No regulation. No penalties. No control of currency. No loans with interest rates. Like a bird with one wing and no feathers trying to impersonate a falcon.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Zircon Dasher
#188 - 2012-03-12 20:51:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just curious, are there any numbers for what bounty isk facets were like pre-incursions for comparison? I'm curious to see how much isk influx from other activities decreased if any as a result of their introduction.


Stop being smart.


You will ruin everything

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#189 - 2012-03-12 20:52:46 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:


ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked

Are you serious? Or are you a botter yourself?


Bots are just as big a problem now as they have ever been, they are not the reason for the inflation we are seeing. The problem we have is there is far too much isk entering the system via incursions. CCP need to nerf not only them but also bounties down to manageable levels.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#190 - 2012-03-12 20:53:44 UTC
gfldex wrote:
[quote=CCP Soundwave]
Love makes pretty blind, you know. We all know how much you love your baby that is Incursions. Please don't cuddle it until it dies.


You're aware that we're making adjustments to Incursions right? I've never said we didn't need to look at Incursion income in isolation, the point I made was that in terms of money coming into the economy, bounties are a massive issue. I'm not entirely sure why some of you keep insisting that it's either or.

Do Incursions need looking at? Absolutely, that's already been done and is awaiting deployment. Are Incursions the big issue in terms of isk coming into the economy? Not even remotely.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#191 - 2012-03-12 20:54:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Seems like Soundwave just promised us that he won't be nerfing Incursions but will instead focus on bounties via ratting, anoms, and missions. I'm very curious how that's gonna pan out - I suppose that there's (theoretically?) an absolute cap to the Incursion faucet, so it'll really emphasize the income differential between high sec Incursions and other high end activities like L5s and high level WH ops.

I guess the net result is that high sec incursion runners will become even more fantastically wealthy compared to everyone else, and Shiny Fleet will be the only way to make ISK at it?

It'll be interesting!

-Liang


At the time they came out incursions were the only thing ccp did regarding flying in space. It should be pretty clear to everyone that in order to claim incursions were "awesome" they wanted allot of people to do them. So they just gave massive windfall rewards for doing them.

But now that they are back to working on eve they don't need to claim incursions are awesome anymore. They don't need to continue to require everyone to do incursions if they want to make competitive isk.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Endeavour Starfleet
#192 - 2012-03-12 20:54:56 UTC
Eso Es wrote:
Nothing to do with inflation, but again, Incursions are terrible for the EVE universe for more than just inflation.



So now we finally cut through the bs about Incursion inflation and onto the real issue.

It lowers the power of nullsec.

No denying that. There is an alternative to the BS politics, broken game mechanics (AFK Cloaking, POS and Corp systems that make it difficult to isolate evil doers) Sov grind, Moon grind, Bot defending etc.. And the alternative is Incursions. And even better they provide a large and varied community aspect to boot!

I have called for a solution to remove the incentive to AFK while cloaked.
I have called for implementation of a much more modular POS and Corp system.
I do not support the bounty nerf.

Other than that tho most of the issues with nullsec are player based. Crap like requiring full API, Fees, Daily mandatory CTAS. Booting people that don't show up at 4AM. Etc...

The current game and alliance player mechanics makes nullsec bad for the EVE universe greater than community Incursions could ever be. So when you get your act together, report the blue bots, start taking needed changes seriously and stop whining only after the fact. Maybe we can talk about what you THINK Incursions are doing that are bad for EVE.
gfldex
#193 - 2012-03-12 20:55:54 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Should I quote CCP about Incursions again?


Yes please. Because CCP was never wrong before.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#194 - 2012-03-12 20:57:08 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
gfldex wrote:
[quote=CCP Soundwave]
Love makes pretty blind, you know. We all know how much you love your baby that is Incursions. Please don't cuddle it until it dies.


You're aware that we're making adjustments to Incursions right? I've never said we didn't need to look at Incursion income in isolation, the point I made was that in terms of money coming into the economy, bounties are a massive issue. I'm not entirely sure why some of you keep insisting that it's either or.

Do Incursions need looking at? Absolutely, that's already been done and is awaiting deployment. Are Incursions the big issue in terms of isk coming into the economy? Not even remotely.


Its really hard to argue with this, as its an absolute point of view. Incursions aren't the largest source of ISK coming into the economy. I'm extremely curious to see how it all goes in the end, and the fact that you guys are looking at the economy as a whole (instead of simply Incursions) is very reassuring.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2012-03-12 20:57:15 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Just curious, are there any numbers for what bounty isk facets were like pre-incursions for comparison? I'm curious to see how much isk influx from other activities decreased if any as a result of their introduction.


I think you can go check out Tippia's rants for some numbers gathered from dev posts all over the forums throughout the years. IIRC missions and bounties have basically remained unchanged for years while Incursions provide what amounts to a wholly new ISK faucet.

-Liang

Thanks for the tip! Lots of good stuff. Need a bit to try and digest it all though. Not sure I'd come to all the same conclusions that were reached in the blog given the numbers presented.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#196 - 2012-03-12 20:58:41 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
gfldex wrote:
[quote=CCP Soundwave]
Love makes pretty blind, you know. We all know how much you love your baby that is Incursions. Please don't cuddle it until it dies.


You're aware that we're making adjustments to Incursions right? I've never said we didn't need to look at Incursion income in isolation, the point I made was that in terms of money coming into the economy, bounties are a massive issue. I'm not entirely sure why some of you keep insisting that it's either or.

Do Incursions need looking at? Absolutely, that's already been done and is awaiting deployment. Are Incursions the big issue in terms of isk coming into the economy? Not even remotely.




They are the major change that happened right before the inflation. Bounties didn't change. Level 4s didn't change. Insurance didn't change except for the nerf in dominion.

Incursions are killing the traditional lp stores which used to be an isk sink.

Incursions are seeding allot of isk directly into the game.

Both of these would tend to cause inflation.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Endeavour Starfleet
#197 - 2012-03-12 20:59:18 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
gfldex wrote:
[quote=CCP Soundwave]
Love makes pretty blind, you know. We all know how much you love your baby that is Incursions. Please don't cuddle it until it dies.


You're aware that we're making adjustments to Incursions right? I've never said we didn't need to look at Incursion income in isolation, the point I made was that in terms of money coming into the economy, bounties are a massive issue. I'm not entirely sure why some of you keep insisting that it's either or.

Do Incursions need looking at? Absolutely, that's already been done and is awaiting deployment. Are Incursions the big issue in terms of isk coming into the economy? Not even remotely.



Which I assume what you mean by adjustments are changes to VGs to remove blitzing while boosting assault and HQ income right?

Side question when will we see a dev blog about those changes? After fanfest right? And will we have plenty of time to test them on Sisi to make sure there arent any surprises right?


Yet thanks for yet again pointing how wrong many are about Incursion Inflation. They just don't get it. In my opinion all they see is rage from Incursions providing an alternative to broken nullsec.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#198 - 2012-03-12 21:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
gfldex wrote:
[quote=CCP Soundwave]
Love makes pretty blind, you know. We all know how much you love your baby that is Incursions. Please don't cuddle it until it dies.


You're aware that we're making adjustments to Incursions right? I've never said we didn't need to look at Incursion income in isolation, the point I made was that in terms of money coming into the economy, bounties are a massive issue. I'm not entirely sure why some of you keep insisting that it's either or.

Do Incursions need looking at? Absolutely, that's already been done and is awaiting deployment. Are Incursions the big issue in terms of isk coming into the economy? Not even remotely.



Which I assume what you mean by adjustments are changes to VGs to remove blitzing while boosting assault and HQ income right?

Side question when will we see a dev blog about those changes? After fanfest right? And will we have plenty of time to test them on Sisi to make sure there arent any surprises right?


Yet thanks for yet again pointing how wrong many are about Incursion Inflation. They just don't get it. In my opinion all they see is rage from Incursions providing an alternative to broken nullsec.

Hmmmmm.... Actually I think he did more damage to your arguement - since most people were not against hitting bounties, but rather against hitting bounties instead of (rather than as well as) incursions. while you seem to be going on about how incursions are fine as they are.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#199 - 2012-03-12 21:06:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
The real solution is not to try to pin the nerf to one specific area of the game, as there isn't a specific mechanic causing the inflation singularly. It's to do an all around slight nerf to income, which will result in a net no-change to people's wealth.

The thing that's not helping is people trying to bandwagon this as another nerf-highsec thread.


Do you believe that running pirate missions in 0.0 should be more profitable than high sec incursions?

-Liang


Forum ate my post :(

I don't honestly know enough about 0.0 PvE to answer that properly.

All I can say is that we could do with an honest conversation about what people really get as income in various areas of the game. There's a lot of misinformation going around.

My personal experience of HS Lv4's is <20m/hour because I don't have a sufficiently shiny ship to do the ridiculous numbers that are thrown around when discussion missions. Given how utterly tedious most of them are, this is not something I want to see nerfed.

My personal experience of HS Incursions is 50m/hour in a decent fleet, with usually 1/2 to 1 hour required set up time before it reaches anywhere near that level of efficiency.

(not personal experience) I understand that there is a theoretical maximum of around 120m/hour for HS incursions, assuming the fleet does not take breaks and everything goes to plan. Realistic shiny fleet income (not personal experience) I'm told is about 100m/hour.

Perhaps others can speak to realistic incomes in other areas of the game?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2012-03-12 21:07:46 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Incursions are killing the traditional lp stores which used to be an isk sink.

Stupid question: How do incursions kill LP stores? Is it the ability to transfer the LP that is at issue?