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Mad inflation

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-03-12 19:27:30 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Andski wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Real numbers Tippia? So your "real" numbers beat CCPs even tho they have a market expert with access to their data.

Epic and I mean epic fail!

And Andski I know about the bot ban wave but it is not enough by far. And it dosen't help that blues are "encouraged" not to report blue bots with promises of sharing and ship replacement programs.

And I have called time and again for hisec bots to be reported tho I highly doubt they beat the numbers in nullsec. Report them anyway because the more bots banned the better!


How do you feel about risk/reward imbalances between high-sec incursions and nullsec anomalies?



That they are balanced minus the issue of AFK cloaking which I already proposed a solution for. With Blitzing VGs are on a bit of the high side but I am not too worried about that because I know eventually the blitzing part will be changed. HQs and As could use a buff tho.

You see I do not like the idea of bounty nerf. I think it will legitimately harm active players and yes greatly change the balance to favor hisec again. Instead I'm going to call as much as I can for action on botting.

You are a goon right? Rumor is the norm is "Don't $*&^ over other goons" Help prevent this madness by reporting the blue bots you see. As my opinion seems to mean little if they are bent on nerfing bounties eh?


Please tell me exactly how my alliance's leadership would enforce the "don't report blue bots" rule.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Endeavour Starfleet
#142 - 2012-03-12 19:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeavour Starfleet
Andski wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…


I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.


What it does show as well as even though low and nullsec incursions have a very high payout and can be done with low cost ships they don't get done. Why is that? They supposedly have higher pay than anoms? right?


sorry to spoil your lil rant but GSF and TEST have been running lowsec incursions since the damn things were released, we even got the first revenant BPC drop! heh!

now here's a better question: why would anyone bother running incursions in lowsec (or, hahahaha nullsec), jumping around in carriers with PvE ships in the hold and scouting all over the place when they can fork over a few billion for a shiny faction BS and farm them in high-sec with significantly less risk of losing ships?


Nullsec pays better. ALOT better. Goons know that as they run them.

You can try to defend the actions of other alliances all you want but the sheer amount of nullsecs that pop without intervention speaks for itself in my opinion.

Andski wrote:
Please tell me exactly how my alliance's leadership would enforce the "don't report blue bots" rule.



Not saying goons do this but I have heard of people expelled and blacklisted for bot reporting. Of course it would likely involve someone telling another blue or saying in corp or alliance that they had reported or spotted a bot.

Don't have to actually remove that many members. If many think you have the power to spot them reporting. You get the point.


Edit: My main point is encouraging you and others to start getting serious about reporting blue bots before they really do end up lowering bounty payments.
MacLuven
EL Bernays School of Strategic Communication
#143 - 2012-03-12 19:30:49 UTC
Incursions? The cause of this thing this weekend?

Not so sure about that.

Money supply is not a sufficient cause of inflation, a necessary cause but not sufficient.

There's a great historical example of an economy that experienced a high population growth, economic growth, productivity growth, and growth in the money supply, but experienced deflation. Eve, 2006-2007.

A growth in money supply isn't a problem so long as the economy can continue to grow fast enough to match the demand generated by the new supply of money. Theoretically.

Money supply is needed to fuel economic growth. Inflation occurs when inefficiencies develop in the economic structure and supply cannot match demand leading to price increases. If money supply increases and it is matched by economic growth, it is not necessarily inflationary. Practically it is inflationary because economies lag a bit in adjusting to its growth.


I'd be more easily convinced that there was a connection between the Incursion flood gates opening and the blow up this weekend if there hadn't been 13.5 months between when Incursions started and now.

And I don't see why how it could have caused the mineral markets to go so crazy.

If the flood of money creating a new super rich class, why are the ultra luxury goods, like faction battleships and tech 2 stuff not going up in price with trend?

The tech 1 battleships are all on a steep climb, but Rattlesnakes, Nightmares, and Vindicators are all trending down in price. Bhaalgorn's are looking stable. Machariels are the only ones going up.

That suggests to me that the run-away prices are a tech 1 phenomenon which means driven by the mineral market. That sounds like a supply shortfall and not a demand spike.

Checking on the tech 1 battleship volume numbers, they look pretty steady over time. So, it's not a spike in demand.

This looks like a mineral supply issue to me.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#144 - 2012-03-12 19:32:49 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Misanth wrote:

* Promote PvP


Wrong. PvP is an isk faucet due to insurance. Try harder.


Not only that, but PVP increases demand for ships and module, which puts upwards pressure on prices.

PVP is healthy for the EVE economy and the manufacturing sector, but too much PVP can also be a bad thing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#145 - 2012-03-12 19:32:54 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:


Nullsec pays better. ALOT better. Goons know that as they run them.

You can try to defend the actions of other alliances all you want but the sheer amount of nullsecs that pop without intervention speaks for itself in my opinion.


Nullsec also has roaming gangs hugry for people doing incursions. A handfull of bombers is all you need and there is far worse out there. Why take that risk when you can swim in risk free isk fountains in highsec?
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2012-03-12 19:34:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…


I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.


Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.


I would try to farm in 0.0 for an hour and even more but I don't think Im (and everyone not belonging to the mega corps) welcome there ... 

This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#147 - 2012-03-12 19:34:34 UTC
MacLuven wrote:
Incursions? The cause of this thing this weekend?

Not so sure about that.



And you would be right. Zydrine prices went sky high because of an expert market manipulation.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#148 - 2012-03-12 19:36:04 UTC
Dbars Grinding wrote:
If battleship bounties get nerfed you will have a lot of angry high sec missioners. Remember those are the bulk of your costumers.
TIme to go mining i guess?


Costumers that buys your pants?

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Zircon Dasher
#149 - 2012-03-12 19:36:05 UTC
Andski wrote:

Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.


Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection.

Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE.

If people are worried about hyper-inflation caused by ISK faucets, which I think is pretty lolworthy....but it is my opinion, then knowing where the biggest faucet is necessary.


Hint: It is not currently Incursions

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#150 - 2012-03-12 19:36:28 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:



Not saying goons do this but I have heard of people expelled and blacklisted for bot reporting. Of course it would likely involve someone telling another blue or saying in corp or alliance that they had reported or spotted a bot.

Don't have to actually remove that many members. If many think you have the power to spot them reporting. You get the point.


Edit: My main point is encouraging you and others to start getting serious about reporting blue bots before they really do end up lowering bounty payments.


What make you think we dont?

We simply do not police for CCP.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#151 - 2012-03-12 19:38:23 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Andski wrote:

Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.


Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection.

Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE.

If people are worried about hyper-inflation caused by ISK faucets, which I think is pretty lolworthy....but it is my opinion, then knowing where the biggest faucet is necessary.


Hint: It is not currently Incursions


Yes it is. They dont have to be the biggest to be causing hyperinflation just inject even more isk into a sysem already suffering from inflation. Incursions are making it worse.
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#152 - 2012-03-12 19:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusanagi Kasuga
Andski wrote:
Seriously any post by Endeavour Starfleet in threads about incursions should just be glossed over entirely because he doesn't want his risk-free 150m ISK/hour fountain touched

ITT, nullbears vastly overestimate the income level of an income source they don't understand and thusly want nerfed.

Top level income for incursions is less than 100m/hour in optimal conditions. There is already noticable competition in sites to make ISK, and it's likely competition will increase as more people find it's not as hard/risky as it used to be. It's still not 100% safe though, I have seen faction battleships explode recently.

The fact that nullsec people seem to jump on every chance to try to attack the income sources of others makes this less of a discussion and more of a war. Perhaps you need to stop clamoring for everyone else's income sources to get nerfed until they are actually higher and/or more dangerous than yours.

Edit: I'll admit I know f*** all about nullsec bounty prizes, much like most of the people shouting for nerfs to highsec income know f*** all about a reasonable high-sec income. The people quoting mission running incomes of 60-100m/hour, and incursion incomes of >100m/hour are either woefully misinformed, or outright lying to support an agenda.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2012-03-12 19:38:50 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We're looking at the economy constantly and looking at our options.

One of the fundamental issues we have is that we're making everyone "better" at making money, so the effect kind of snowballs. Right now we're considering everything form increasing taxes to lowering bounties across the board.

How about adding small docking fee to hisec stations, tiny stargate usage fee to hisec gates. Concord-/customs- and station crew need to get paid.

Also... remove insurance and remove ability to milk incursions.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#154 - 2012-03-12 19:41:04 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Andski wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Tippia wrote:
As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the system…

I did not see that one. Good catch!

Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb.

Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.

The day when i have to agree with a goon is a sad day indeed.


Seeing you guys go back and forth is perplexing. Miners provide something for their efforts to the eve economy: minerals. The efforts in and of themselves are not relevant... only what the miner brings in in terms of mins. Mining effort = mins = isk. 0.0 ratting is a mixed bag. You can bring in NPC loot for your efforts and sell it. That aspect of null ratting is fine for the economy since you are not paid for getting the modules, you are paid for selling them on the market, by the market. Ratting effort = modules = isk. The null ratting bounties are another matter. You get ISK right from the EvE system and there is no check or balance with the economy. Your effort = isk. Incursions provide nothing for the economy really. It's just "free" isk that you get for effort. effort = isk. Missions are the same.

Again, all the problems occur when mere effort = isk. When the market doesn't get a say.

All these is facet problems WILL be solved when you look at every profession in eve and turn this: Effort = ISK into this: Effort = Some Commodity = ISK. If this is done, all activities you guys are talking about will get corrected by the market and be auto-balanced by the players/market and CCP won't have to think about it again. It will just be solved.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#155 - 2012-03-12 19:43:15 UTC  |  Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Andski wrote:

Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.


Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection.

Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE.



Not empty quoting anther clueless post about " i dont understand that introducing what would seem is small isk injection(18%) can actually multiply amount of isk retained in a economy by huge factor"
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#156 - 2012-03-12 19:45:38 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
Top level income for incursions is less than 100m/hour in optimal conditions. There is already noticable competition in sites to make ISK, and it's likely competition will increase as more people find it's not as hard/risky as it used to be. It's still not 100% safe though, I have seen faction battleships explode recently.


ahaha look at you calling me a nullbear when you literally never leave high-sec or PvP at all

hisec "shiny" fleets can milk vanguards at well over 100m/hour, fyi

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#157 - 2012-03-12 19:46:03 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Andski wrote:

Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.


Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection.

Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE.



Not empty quoting anther clueless post about " i dont understand that introducing what would think is small isk injection(18%) can actually multiply amount of isk retained in a economy by huge factor"


Not empty quoting another clueless post about "I don't understand that a new income source, however much lacking balance by a new isk-sink, is not the problem unless it is, itself, injecting greater amounts of ISK than it should." Whether it is the straw that breaks the camels back is irrelevant.

The straw that breaks the camels back: Incursions
The anvil already on the camel's back: Bounties.

Which one is the root of the problem?
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#158 - 2012-03-12 19:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusanagi Kasuga
Andski wrote:
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
Top level income for incursions is less than 100m/hour in optimal conditions. There is already noticable competition in sites to make ISK, and it's likely competition will increase as more people find it's not as hard/risky as it used to be. It's still not 100% safe though, I have seen faction battleships explode recently.


ahaha look at you calling me a nullbear when you literally never leave high-sec or PvP at all

hisec "shiny" fleets can milk vanguards at well over 100m/hour, fyi


Shall I assume that's from your long experience as a member of a hisec shiny fleet, or are you pulling that fact from your rectum?

Also, even if that was the case - you're suggesting nerfing incursions overall, not the top-end rate. In fact, most nerfs would probably be bottom-heavy, screwing the players who were not making top-ISK already.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-03-12 19:47:53 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Andski wrote:

Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.

Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.


Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection.

Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE.



Not empty quoting anther clueless post about " i dont understand that introducing what would think is small isk injection(18%) can actually multiply amount of isk retained in a economy by huge factor"


Not empty quoting another clueless post about "I don't understand that a new income source, however much lacking balance by a new isk-sink, is not the problem unless it is, itself, injecting greater amounts of ISK than it should." Whether it is the straw that breaks the camels back is irrelevant.

The straw that breaks the camels back: Incursions
The anvil already on the camel's back: Bounties.

Which one is the root of the problem?


"Please leave my no-risk ISK fountain alone and nerf the already pathetic income from 0.0 bounties"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#160 - 2012-03-12 19:48:36 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:

The straw that breaks the camels back: Incursions
The anvil already on the camel's back: Bounties.

Which one is the root of the problem?

They are the same thing.

Effort = ISK - controlled by EvE system, creates market imbalance.
Effort = Commodity = ISK - controlled by market and balances on its own.

Signatures should be used responsibly...