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Dear Devs, thank you for spending 5 minutes to explain a game mechanic
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-03-12 11:56:48 UTC
If ECM -ONLY- broke the lock of something it would be fine.

But look at these mods:

Tracking disruptor
Sensor dampener
(Target painter)

I remember when they nerfed sensor dampeners because they were too overpowered, but compared to ECM in its current state they are severely underpowered and there's a reason why ECM is the be all/end all type of module in small scale warfare. If ECM got changed into breaking the lock of a target ship instead of jamming it, or if ECM had its power reduced again/or had stacking penalties then I would think that ECM was more in line with other EWAR.



Ronald Reagan: I do not like Sweden, they support communism. Minister: Sir, but Sweden are anti-communist, Sir.  Ronald Reagan: I do not care what kind of communists they are.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-03-12 12:38:29 UTC
Tobias Sjodin wrote:
If ECM -ONLY- broke the lock of something it would be fine.

But look at these mods:

Tracking disruptor
Sensor dampener
(Target painter)

I remember when they nerfed sensor dampeners because they were too overpowered, but compared to ECM in its current state they are severely underpowered and there's a reason why ECM is the be all/end all type of module in small scale warfare. If ECM got changed into breaking the lock of a target ship instead of jamming it, or if ECM had its power reduced again/or had stacking penalties then I would think that ECM was more in line with other EWAR.





If warp disruptors were changed into breaking a target's ship entry to warp instead of jamming it, or if warp disruptors had their power reduced again or had stacking penalties then I would think that warp disruptors were more in line with other forms of EWAR.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Meridith Akesia
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-03-12 13:18:02 UTC
Andski wrote:
if only eve was a multiplayer game, I'd bring a friend along, bait a falcon, probe it out with a covops alt and slingshot my bro in a curse his way


LOLOL U SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT A BIGGER BLOB, DEAL WITH MY FALCON LOL ******* BADS
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#44 - 2012-03-12 13:22:09 UTC
Meridith Akesia wrote:
Andski wrote:
if only eve was a multiplayer game, I'd bring a friend along, bait a falcon, probe it out with a covops alt and slingshot my bro in a curse his way


LOLOL U SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT A BIGGER BLOB, DEAL WITH MY FALCON LOL ******* BADS


I too, call a 3 ship gang a blob.
Nirnias Stirrum
UberWTFBBQ and Battle Technologies
#45 - 2012-03-12 13:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nirnias Stirrum
Funny thing is "I was there" with Yvella during this particular incident and it is REALLY stupid... after killing Oracle, and a Dominix and other stuff with just a Wolf and a Sabre... then boom we bump into a Falcon and a sabre and theres nothing that can be done on our part other than die in a firey explosion. Which is actually quite fun.. we did have a good run until we ran into them, just a really really gay ending

I didnt think it annoyed you THAT much though Yvella :P


but please fix ECM...
Dors Venabily
United Starbase Systems
#46 - 2012-03-12 13:45:59 UTC
Yvella wrote:
ECM is poor game design, any mechanic that leaves a person completely useless Evil

Yes this is an argument as old as the hills, but to summarise:

1. It is common for people to have dedicated ECM alts. This is a typical sign of an OP mechanic
2. ECM does not scale in fleet fights, but completely ruins, solo and small gang engagements
3. Has anyone seen the sabre/falcon gate camp. Did you just say risk free pvp.....

Seriously address this now please


I used to have respect for Bricks before this post Sad
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2012-03-12 13:47:46 UTC
Tobias Sjodin wrote:
If ECM -ONLY- broke the lock of something it would be fine.
I generally agree with this.

The largest annoyance with ECM is that feeling of not being able to do anything about it — if it hits, you have to sit there for 20 seconds, no ifs, no buts, and then you can hope that at the end of the cycle, you might be given a chance to get back in the fight. It's the 20 seconds that cause the “permajammed” perception (regardless of whether it actually happens or not — in a fight that lasts 100 seconds, a single successful jam that causes a 20s blackout + 5 seconds of reacquiring time is “permanent” enough).

Making targeted ECM have the same effect as an ECM burst would have a couple of advantages:

· Sensor damping would suddenly be very important — yes, your BECAUSEOFFALCONs might knock the enemy ships out, but they'll be back to firing in 5-6 seconds… unless you also brought a BECAUSEOFARAZU to ensure that it's actually 10-15 seconds instead.

· Size becomes an interesting component. Instead of small ships being unavoidably locked out by ECM due to their low sensor strength, making that dreaded permajam that more likely, they will still lose lock very easily, but they will also reacquire their targets quickly. An ECM ship can no longer simply put a jammer on an interceptor and know that he is now safe from being tackled since the jamming strength so easily overcomes those silly frigate sensors.

· ECM now has two kinds of counters — the passive ECCM and the more active sensor booster (well… the active part is the reacquisition of your target, which is made all the more immediate with a booster).
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2012-03-12 14:07:19 UTC
EC- drones are the worst. 10 of those can keep a carrier jammed sometimes indefinitely even if you fill your mid slots with ECCM

It needs to stop being chance based. Same thing happened in AD&D with autofail/success. Vorpal swords for example will instantly kill anyone after a few slashes, regardless of the involved character's level differences. And Web cast by a lvl2 character can sometimes catch a lvl20 monk.

It was agreed autofail/success was ******** and they removed it in later AD&D rules. Same should be done with this ECM crap.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-03-12 14:25:06 UTC
I started EVE when my work buddy told me about EVE, ECM, and Scorpions. I now have 2 ECM toons, one with all Electronics Skills to 5 and the second almost there...

Woot !!!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-03-12 14:38:30 UTC
Meridith Akesia wrote:
Andski wrote:
if only eve was a multiplayer game, I'd bring a friend along, bait a falcon, probe it out with a covops alt and slingshot my bro in a curse his way


LOLOL U SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT A BIGGER BLOB, DEAL WITH MY FALCON LOL ******* BADS


He has a DPS ship and a recon.

You have a DPS ship and a recon.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#51 - 2012-03-12 15:00:05 UTC
Yvella wrote:
ECM is poor game design, any mechanic that leaves a person completely useless Evil

Yes this is an argument as old as the hills, but to summarise:

1. It is common for people to have dedicated ECM alts. This is a typical sign of an OP mechanic
2. ECM does not scale in fleet fights, but completely ruins, solo and small gang engagements
3. Has anyone seen the sabre/falcon gate camp. Did you just say risk free pvp.....

Seriously address this now please



Did someone already post the "show us on the doll where the ECM ship touched you" yet? Or is this it?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#52 - 2012-03-12 15:12:39 UTC
I think it has to do with many of the other electronic warfares not providing the same level of 'immunity'.

Now if jammers only did -1 target and it lock loses the first locked target for every successful jam would probably bring it down to the same level of 'usefulness' as the other electronic warfares. Which at that point it requires a squradron or a specialized ship (which would increase the chances of knocking more than one target at a time)

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Glarealot
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-03-12 15:37:06 UTC
ECM was designed to hurt solo and small scale PvP. It worked perfectly.

Learn to blob or gtfo.

<-------------- WoW is that way.

.
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-03-12 15:38:08 UTC
Glarealot wrote:
ECM was designed to hurt solo and small scale PvP. It worked perfectly.

Learn to blob or gtfo.

<-------------- WoW is that way.


Pretty much this.

.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#55 - 2012-03-12 15:45:04 UTC
It seems like all the ECM whines are actually "I was trying to solo and they had two people so I lost." whines.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#56 - 2012-03-12 16:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Terminal Insanity wrote:
EC- drones are the worst. 10 of those can keep a carrier jammed sometimes indefinitely even if you fill your mid slots with ECCM.


So, not only will a flight of light ECM drones permajam a dual ECCMs Abbadon, they will even keep a Carrier permajammed even if you fill your midslots with ECCM.

So lets take an Archon. With 4 ECCM it will have a sensorstrenght of 509 points. If you put 10 EC-600 mediums on it, they will have a 2.9% chance of jamming it. Statistically, it will be jammed 17.4 seconds during a 10 minute fight. What you think is the probability of permajamming it?
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#57 - 2012-03-12 17:09:31 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Yvella wrote:
1. It is common for people to have dedicated ECM alts. This is a typical sign of an OP mechanic
2. ECM does not scale in fleet fights, but completely ruins, solo and small gang engagements


I always felt that #2 could be solved by giving jammers a stacking penalty like you know all the other ECM stuff like webs, TDs, damps, heck even PWNAGE has stacking penalty.


Or make it harder to jam the longer the fight last, or both.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#58 - 2012-03-12 17:14:50 UTC
Meridith Akesia wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

1. It is common for people to have high-sec alts. This is a typical sign of an OP mechanic.
2. ECM may not scale in fleet fights, but drone boats completely ruin ECM boats in small gang engagements more than half the time. Think about it.
3. Nothing is risk free. Nothing. See also: Smartbomb camp breaking.

Stuff in Eve has counters.

Smart people find them.

I wonder what sort of people start whine threads?


What kind of stupid falcon pilots are you encountering that sit within effective drone range. Theres no way a decent falcon pilot should be 'completely ruined' by a drone boat.

Also Suggesting FoF's as an effective counter to ecm is absolutely ********.

ECCM is also not effective enough. In order to fit enough to effectively stop you from spending a whole fight jammed you make your ship practically useless for pvp.


What's the effective range of a drone boat?

Ever hear of Drone Link Augmentors? Well, what's the range?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Win Sui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-03-12 17:26:31 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
EC- drones are the worst. 10 of those can keep a carrier jammed sometimes indefinitely even if you fill your mid slots with ECCM.


So, not only will a flight of light ECM drones permajam a dual ECCMs Abbadon, they will even keep a Carrier permajammed even if you fill your midslots with ECCM.

So lets take an Archon. With 4 ECCM it will have a sensorstrenght of 509 points. If you put 10 EC-600 mediums on it, they will have a 2.9% chance of jamming it. Statistically, it will be jammed 17.4 seconds during a 10 minute fight. What you think is the probability of permajamming it?



Hey hey hey. No bringing math and facts and stuff into this. You need some anecdote about how your Griffing perma-jammed a super carrier that had ECCM in all its slots.

That's how this thread works.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#60 - 2012-03-12 17:39:30 UTC
Neuts can be countered by a single pilots/mods. TD can be countered by a single pilot/mods. Damps can be countered by a single pilot/mods. TP.. well it doesn't really make you unable to fight, does it. Etc.

Is it reasonable to ask people "bring friends" "bring ECM of your own"? Only if you want numbers > all. Should it be? What point is there with skillpoints, more expensive gear, etc, if blobs > all. Then we might as well all be level 85 in same gear and just chose the colour on our ships, and our isk could be spent in a pet store since we all fly same ships anyway.

The most reasonable counter to ECM is to make it get weaker over time, each time you get jammed the chance of getting jammed another cycle should diminish - no matter what source the jam comes from as well. Unless ECCM actually become useful (but if it does, then ECM needs to be less chance based as well tbh), then there's really no other way to go about this.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.