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How balanced are tier 3 BC's?

First post
Author
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#41 - 2012-03-01 09:58:10 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Yeah I was reading the thread on the HA forums. It'd probably work. Not really my cup of tea but its certainly viable.

PL seems to be rolling with them in large numbers.


Yeah man... even more than Erebus' it seems too! ShockedRollLol

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#42 - 2012-03-01 17:35:40 UTC
Talos, Tornado and Oracle are really good for small gang PvP. You don't need a web, because you a) should have some sort of anti-tackle with you in your gang and b) these ships are fast enough to reduce transversal on incoming tackle and land hits.

The Naga is bad for small gang PvP because it has tank (which is useless), slow speed (which is bad), and low range (3 lowslots, heh). It is good for large-scale PvP tho.

The metagame has changed with the introduction of the Tier3's, and I don't think it has settled yet. They fit perfectly into today's Eve, imo.

About the Tier3s obsoleting HACs: I'm kind of divided on that one. For example, Oracle and Zealot fill different roles, and in a lot of cases I'd rather fly a Zealot than an Oracle.
Yabba Addict
Legion of the Many
#43 - 2012-03-01 20:29:21 UTC
Lijhal wrote:
apart from the high scan resolution tier3 BC's have, i think they're pretty well balanced in terms of dmg/EHP/speed

But i dont like the idea about ships with oversized guns ( makes me think, ccp lost imagination ) but this is my opinion... i for one hope, we wont get any new ship with oversized guns ever

li



Dunno why you see it like that, stealth bombers are just the same and were well received.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-03-01 20:38:52 UTC
I'm still of the opinion that they should have either not had 8 turret slots (say, about 6), or should have had all 8 but been PG limited enough that you couldn't put a whole rack of top tier guns on without an utter lolfit.

Mostly because from what I'm reading about useage, they do seem to be stepping quite heavily on BS's toes thanks to being on par (if not better) in the firepower stakes while retaining mobility & being quite a bit cheaper.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-03-02 01:56:49 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
I'm still of the opinion that they should have either not had 8 turret slots (say, about 6), or should have had all 8 but been PG limited enough that you couldn't put a whole rack of top tier guns on without an utter lolfit.

Mostly because from what I'm reading about useage, they do seem to be stepping quite heavily on BS's toes thanks to being on par (if not better) in the firepower stakes while retaining mobility & being quite a bit cheaper.


Yes and No.

Taking an oracle fleet against a BS fleet is ......brave.....

Not that you can't, but one hictor gets a bubble up and you loose that fleet. So they are quite effective in fire support, but no one is giving up their Maelstroms and Abbadons for them quite yet.

On the plus side you only need a couple logi, because you are only repping them long enough for them to warp off.

They are interesting hulls, as interesting for its strengths as its weeknesses.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#46 - 2012-03-11 20:06:17 UTC
axxeessee wrote:

The trick is to not stay close to anything, you let your gang stay in point range, and you stay far in the back. You cant have a pure oracle gang for obvious reasons, but if you just have a couple of tanky bcs (drakes) to hold points, there is no ship in the game that comes even remotely close to the DPS that an oracle can deal (and since you should be sitting at 70k off everything, you should pretty much be safe). You also need those drakes or whatever to intercept frigates asap, and you should focus them down. (Even if the oracle has BS sized weapon, the tracking is actually pretty good at range for hitting frigates)

The oracle is extremely dependant on your gang, but if your gang is just a little bit comptetent, the damage projection is just borderline OP. The fit is mwd + 2 lse in mids, full rack of mega pulse, and full gank in the lows ( heat sinks and TEs only). As long as you are within 70K (scorch optimal, very balanced I know...), you are dealing a full 780dps (no heat, no implants). Compare that to the other T3s, the tornado doesnt even apply any damage at that range, blaster naga/talos also dont have close to that range, and rail naga/talos dont have close to the tracking of mega pulse.

Got no videos right now but ill try to find something.


So I finally decided to go ahead and buy an Oracle - mostly for some POCO/POS bashing. I pulled it out last night and we went to town on Unprovoked Aggression over in Antem. I'd say its definitely a gang ship and its damage projection is fantastic. I ended up with top damage on most kills from 60-80km out of the fight - though we did end up with an Oracle tackled by a frig and unable to defend himself. Most of us were at range though so it was pretty easy to blap the Malediction from range. I have fraps of the fight too, and it looked like it turned out.

I think the most frustrating thing about the video is that I was listening to music (again) and so it'll be hard to include voice comms when I include it in the new video series. :(

-Liang

Ed: This is a "You were right" post, BTW.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Willl Adama
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-03-11 22:30:28 UTC
I think the overall balance of the tier3s has turned out ok.

They perform the role they were intended to, and are thus lethal if used in the right way, but also dies very easily if you make mistakes.

Regarding the balance in between the 4 ships themselves, I think the Naga is slightly inferior to the rest because it doesn't do anything that the other ones dont do better (except shieldtanking).

Hi

welsh wizard
Celestial Fish Inc.
#48 - 2012-03-12 11:06:54 UTC
I've just returned to the game after a 3.5 year hiatus and haven't actually PVP'ed again yet! So perhaps I'm not in a position to talk about the balance of the tier 3's... However, I have always taken an interest in balancing and was previously very vocal in here as Liang and Goumindong (if he's still about?) can testify. I.e. shutup and listen! :P

Just looking at the bonuses on the tier 3's and the nature of their weaponry frightens me. I appreciate what CCP are trying to do here, they're trying to provide a ship worthy of its namesake, a true battlecruiser. I feel that given how prominent the firepower is and how cheap the ship is (insurable tech1), this class is going to have more of an effect on PVP than any introduction since dreads and carriers first appeared on our scanners (i remember killing the first dread ever fielded! :P). 8 bonused large weapons projecting damage out to long ranges seems pretty extreme to me. Sure BS still have a place as they have more staying power but gank > tank in fleet combat so that 'place' is getting weaker. And what of the tier 1 BC's? In some cases they still have a point (Brutix) but in the other 3 cases its looking even sorrier than it already was when tier 2's came out. I mean the Ferox now, the only application I can see for it is to attract fights under the guise that you're flying a crap ship, problem is, you really are flying a crap ship! The Prophecy and the Cyclone don't come off much better.

As someone else said, introducing more ships endlessly is not what CCP should be doing. They should be focusing their efforts on providing clearly defined useful roles and bonuses to the ships we already have.

Btw, what was the hybrid buff exactly? I know about the 5 second reload time but what else was done? Ta.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-03-12 11:28:01 UTC
Kingwood wrote:


The Naga is bad for small gang PvP because it has tank (which is useless), slow speed (which is bad), and low range (3 lowslots, heh).


Maybe there should be some sort of med-slot module that would increase optimal range?
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-03-12 12:07:32 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Kingwood wrote:


The Naga is bad for small gang PvP because it has tank (which is useless), slow speed (which is bad), and low range (3 lowslots, heh).


Maybe there should be some sort of med-slot module that would increase optimal range?


What a ridiculous idea. And if only the Naga were range bonused, it certainly would be nice to lob antimatter at 70km+. Oh well, we can dream.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#51 - 2012-03-12 15:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Pheusia
welsh wizard wrote:
. Sure BS still have a place as they have more staying power but gank > tank in fleet combat so that 'place' is getting weaker.


Kind of but no. There has been a huge proliferation in Logistics pilots (plus a couple of Logistics ships buffs) since 3.5 years ago, and maxed out tiered gang bonuses are the norm for big fleet combat (that is you should expect your targets to have >35% sig reduction, ~30% extra MWD/AB bonus, and ~45% web/tackle range, on top of the maxed out shield/armour bonuses. And those rep cycle/amount bonuses are a big deal for remote repping.

Yes after a point, reps can't keep up with fleet alpha, but you'll probably be shocked at how high that bar is set these days.

welsh wizard wrote:
Btw, what was the hybrid buff exactly? I know about the 5 second reload time but what else was done? Ta.


Significantly reduced fitting costs (you can actually fit 425mms on a Rokh now), -33% cap use, +10% DPS for rails, +25% tracking and +5% DPS for blasters, can't recall if rails got a tracking boost as well?.

Overall, Arty is still a winner for the raw alpha and lasers for straight up DPS, but hybrids are at least competitive now.

EDIT: Oh yeah and T2 high damage ammo was reworked as well, check it out.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#52 - 2012-03-12 17:14:28 UTC
The oracle dosen't have anything like enough CPU for you to be able to fit it in a way that is actually remtoely effective.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#53 - 2012-03-12 17:14:33 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Kingwood wrote:


The Naga is bad for small gang PvP because it has tank (which is useless), slow speed (which is bad), and low range (3 lowslots, heh).


Maybe there should be some sort of med-slot module that would increase optimal range?


What a ridiculous idea. And if only the Naga were range bonused, it certainly would be nice to lob antimatter at 70km+. Oh well, we can dream.


It'd sure be nice if there was a mid slot that give +damage and +rof and another mid slot that gave +inertia and +speed. Oh wait, maybe its really limiting to have so few lows! :doh:

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#54 - 2012-03-12 17:35:55 UTC
welsh wizard wrote:
I've just returned to the game after a 3.5 year hiatus and haven't actually PVP'ed again yet! So perhaps I'm not in a position to talk about the balance of the tier 3's... However, I have always taken an interest in balancing and was previously very vocal in here as Liang and Goumindong (if he's still about?) can testify. I.e. shutup and listen! :P


I haven't seen Goum in game, on failheap, or on the Eve-O forums in ... years probably. I occasionally see him on google talk, I'll harass him next time I see him. I hear he's still active at Kugu though. Also, you're probably not too far behind the curve as far as Tier 3s go - pretty much nobody knows where this particular train is going to stop and the net effect on the meta game is still totally up in the air.

Quote:

Just looking at the bonuses on the tier 3's and the nature of their weaponry frightens me. I appreciate what CCP are trying to do here, they're trying to provide a ship worthy of its namesake, a true battlecruiser. I feel that given how prominent the firepower is and how cheap the ship is (insurable tech1), this class is going to have more of an effect on PVP than any introduction since dreads and carriers first appeared on our scanners (i remember killing the first dread ever fielded! :P). 8 bonused large weapons projecting damage out to long ranges seems pretty extreme to me. Sure BS still have a place as they have more staying power but gank > tank in fleet combat so that 'place' is getting weaker. And what of the tier 1 BC's? In some cases they still have a point (Brutix) but in the other 3 cases its looking even sorrier than it already was when tier 2's came out. I mean the Ferox now, the only application I can see for it is to attract fights under the guise that you're flying a crap ship, problem is, you really are flying a crap ship! The Prophecy and the Cyclone don't come off much better.


I think you might want to hold the fire and brimstone until you're fully appraised of the state of PVP in Eve. First off, I don't think its useful to talk about Tier 1 BCs in any meaningful manner until they get boosted (potentially in Inferno?). Their lack of relative utility doesn't have anything to do with Tier 3s, so it's definitely incorrect to assign blame there. Furthermore, Tier 1 and Tier 2 BCs simply occupy a different niche in PVP than Tier 3s.

What you're saying about Gank > Tank is certainly true in "true" small gang warfare (such as you encounter in non-EUTZ non-FW low sec), but things escalate pretty quickly these days. What passes for "small gang" 0.0 combat these days would be the large fleet fights off yesteryear involving 50-200 per side, and the logi heavy environment has meant people turned to Alpha Fleets. And all of that neglects the actual fleets - up to 2000 players duking it out at a time. AFAIK, Tier 3s are only being successfully used in fleet combat by one alliance (PL)... and even then I'm not sure how many they're rolling around with.

For your 0.0 fleet doctrine fix, you should talk to someone else.

Quote:
Btw, what was the hybrid buff exactly? I know about the 5 second reload time but what else was done? Ta.


http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3219
http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3382

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2012-03-13 00:22:32 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
What passes for "small gang" 0.0 combat these days would be the large fleet fights off yesteryear involving 50-200 per side, and the logi heavy environment has meant people turned to Alpha Fleets.


Small gang is same everywhere.

Quote:
AFAIK, Tier 3s are only being successfully used in fleet combat by one alliance (PL)... and even then I'm not sure how many they're rolling around with.


Nulli uses Nagas.
-A-, NCdot, Occupational Hazard and a few others use plated Oracles.

The only times I've fought PL Tier 3s, they were really gay, no-tank Tach Oracles and never really stuck around on-grid long enough to do anything (that I noticed).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#56 - 2012-03-13 02:19:49 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
What passes for "small gang" 0.0 combat these days would be the large fleet fights off yesteryear involving 50-200 per side, and the logi heavy environment has meant people turned to Alpha Fleets.


Small gang is same everywhere.


That's pretty funny. I've seen you call what would been considered a "small gang" 3-4 years ago a "tiny gang" and what would have been called a good size fleet a "small gang". July 2007 still referred to getting 40 people into fleet an op - and 150 people was considered "old school" game crashing blobbage. The 2008 QY6 fleet fight in the famous "Tonight we dine in NOL" campaign only involved ~100 Goonswarm to ~80 BOB. In contrast the recent O2O fleet fight had over 1900 simultaneous people.

Quote:

Nulli uses Nagas.
-A-, NCdot, Occupational Hazard and a few others use plated Oracles.

The only times I've fought PL Tier 3s, they were really gay, no-tank Tach Oracles and never really stuck around on-grid long enough to do anything (that I noticed).


Fair enough - you're generally really well informed about what the latest and greatest blob tactics are, and who's using each one.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-03-13 08:41:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
What passes for "small gang" 0.0 combat these days would be the large fleet fights off yesteryear involving 50-200 per side, and the logi heavy environment has meant people turned to Alpha Fleets.


Small gang is same everywhere.


That's pretty funny. I've seen you call what would been considered a "small gang" 3-4 years ago a "tiny gang" and what would have been called a good size fleet a "small gang". July 2007 still referred to getting 40 people into fleet an op - and 150 people was considered "old school" game crashing blobbage. The 2008 QY6 fleet fight in the famous "Tonight we dine in NOL" campaign only involved ~100 Goonswarm to ~80 BOB. In contrast the recent O2O fleet fight had over 1900 simultaneous people.

Quote:

Nulli uses Nagas.
-A-, NCdot, Occupational Hazard and a few others use plated Oracles.

The only times I've fought PL Tier 3s, they were really gay, no-tank Tach Oracles and never really stuck around on-grid long enough to do anything (that I noticed).


Fair enough - you're generally really well informed about what the latest and greatest blob tactics are, and who's using each one.

-Liang



You only ever see PL in Oracles when they have a significant meatshield fleet, soon as you get close they **** off, quick like. Add to that Nulli loves their Nagas apparently, and we've caught XIX running around in 20ish man Tornado gangs.

For the most part we use the tier 3s for roams...pretty much every hull except Talos. There were a couple fleets of both Nagas and Tornados during C-J6 a couple weeks ago. They just didn't get as much press as all of the cap/supers/T3s.

Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#58 - 2012-03-13 09:50:18 UTC
For small gang, Oracle is the best assuming you have adequate tackle/anti-tackle (Tier 2 BCs do this well), otherwise the Talos. Tornado is in between the two extremes IMO - not enough gank (less DPS than an equivalent Oracle fit at every range) but it has the ability to fit a point whilst still being fast and having a credible shield tank (same as an Arty Cane). Naga's lack of lows really hurt it - not enough to fit nanos as well as a respectable amount of damage mods, both of which are required.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-03-13 10:44:42 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
For small gang, Oracle is the best assuming you have adequate tackle/anti-tackle (Tier 2 BCs do this well), otherwise the Talos. Tornado is in between the two extremes IMO - not enough gank (less DPS than an equivalent Oracle fit at every range) but it has the ability to fit a point whilst still being fast and having a credible shield tank (same as an Arty Cane). Naga's lack of lows really hurt it - not enough to fit nanos as well as a respectable amount of damage mods, both of which are required.



Putting a point on a Tornado is ....ironically...pointless IMO.

Its guns blow inside point range, if you need points use a tier 2 they are a hell of a lot better suited to that sort of work. On the outside the glass cannon 1400mm Nado is a nasty bastard when you can basically one shot damn near anything with 5 of them on a target.

Likewise Naga, that thing hits like a truck when you take into account that its damage and range bonused, and can sling anti-matter 70km with vollies in the upper 2k range....low slots or no. Not to mention that Naga has no need to compromise tank like the other three to fit long range guns, they have the best chance short of the Oracle to survive taking a couple hits.

It depends on application, I was less than impressed with the Talos out of the all three of them. In small gang (sub 20) I'm a big fan of my AC Tornado, assuming its some sort of fleet that isn't going to be gate humping.

A number of our FCs won't let a Talos in the fleet.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-03-13 10:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
The problem with the Naga is it has horribad tracking. In the one real fight I got with them, they were unable to track a (well-flown) Huginn under 40km.

At first (on SiSi), I was a fan of the Tornado, then after they hit TQ the Tornado looked worse and worse. ACs are... well, ACs and project DPS fairly poorly even with a falloff bonus. Arties can't track intelligently flown HACs/recons/logis, even MWDing Muninns at 30km-ish. Nagas out-range them, Talos out-DPSes them at relevant small gang ranges, Oracles put out more DPS and do it further.

That's my opinion anyway.