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Industrialists? Should you vote? Who should you vote for?

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Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#41 - 2012-03-11 01:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Snow Axe wrote:
Not to mention an anti-botting stance is a pretty worthless one to have, what with CCP having a team dedicated to actually catching and banning botters again.

If anything, you should look at someone who has anti-botting as a main platform rather suspect, since it's likely covering for the lack of an actual useful platform. It's very intentional, as nobody will argue with you that botting isn't an important issue, so it makes you look like you truly do care about the welfare of the game and want to help and all of that good stuff, but with the reality of CCP (a) knowing about it and (b) finally acting on it, it's the definition of unnecessary.


Well to be honest the botters were only caught half way through the last campain week, I think considering the lack of time between that and the voting - people could be forgiven for including it on their ticket

Also, the cynics among us (yes me) will remind you that CCP has done this a couple times before just as CSM was being voted on - any good marketing person could tell you why

Basically the jury is still out for me as far as if CCP is DOING something about botters. The fact that they have DONE something doesn't necessarily mean they are DOING something about it ;

If there's a similar ban next month I will ecstatically eat my words ;)

.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-03-11 01:44:24 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Well to be honest the botters were only caught half way through the last campain week, I think considering the lack of time between that and the voting - people could be forgiven for including it on their ticket

Also, the cynics among us (yes me) will remind you that CCP has done this a couple times before just as CSM was being voted on - any good marketing person could tell you why

Basically the jury is still out for me as far as if CCP is DOING something about botters. The fact that they have DONE something doesn't necessarily mean they are DOING something about it ;

If there's a similar ban next month I will ecstatically eat my words ;)


I don't disagree with a word of this, but it does point out that CCP is certainly aware of botting, aware that it's a problem. Past instances of not doing anything about it most likely had 0 to do with in-game reasons - in other words, they weren't doing it because they didn't think players thought it was a problem or anything like that. Whatever reasons they had for doing something/not doing something wasn't going to be affected by a player advocacy group.

Personally I'm optimistic that things will start to look up from a botting perspective - the entire theme since Crucible seems to be CCP more or less "getting it together" for lack of a better term. They went all-in with Incarna and nearly lost their hat, and so far they're bouncing back nicely. I think (nay, hope) it'll continue, but if it doesn't, it's not really something the CSM will be able to do much about one way or the other. That's more what I was driving at in the first place.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Rykuss
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2012-03-11 01:58:09 UTC
As an industrialist, I don't need a candidate screaming for more ways to mine faster. I don't need a bigger, better mining barge. I don't want mining to be PI with a new skin. I don't want "legalized" mining bots. Roll I also don't need someone telling CCP to focus on high-sec in general. What I need is for EVE to be fixed across the board. A balanced CSM, representatives with expertise in each area that come together to get stuff fixed. Most proposals for "fixing" industry and mining in general I've seen seem to make it safer, more passive and even easier for botters. I'm inclined to believe these proposals are put forth by the botters themselves.

So, having said all that, Seleene and The Mittani don't need my votes as they are shoe-ins. My votes went to Hans because, in my opinion, he is the most logical choice and his platform speaks for itself. All those industrialists/miners voting with their emotions because they got ganked, fail to see the bigger picture. While ganks will always be a part of EVE, they would be far less prevalent if not for the sheer boredom most PvP'ers are faced with right now. While these same people are screaming for more safety, they fail to realize that the same protection is enjoyed by that mining bot in your system as well as his pals, #2 - #20.

Ganking, while not a pleasant experience to be on the receiving end of I admit, doesn't make my blood boil nearly as much as seeing someone whine in local that such a mechanic exists while afk'ing in a belt for hours on end. They just sit there, idle, not even mining and chances are, they won't even get ganked for being a moron.

You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#44 - 2012-03-11 02:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Rykuss wrote:
As an industrialist, I don't need a candidate screaming for more ways to mine faster. I don't need a bigger, better mining barge. I don't want mining to be PI with a new skin. I don't want "legalized" mining bots. Roll I also don't need someone telling CCP to focus on high-sec in general. What I need is for EVE to be fixed across the board. A balanced CSM, representatives with expertise in each area that come together to get stuff fixed. Most proposals for "fixing" industry and mining in general I've seen seem to make it safer, more passive and even easier for botters. I'm inclined to believe these proposals are put forth by the botters themselves.

So, having said all that, Seleene and The Mittani don't need my votes as they are shoe-ins. My votes went to Hans because, in my opinion, he is the most logical choice and his platform speaks for itself. All those industrialists/miners voting with their emotions because they got ganked, fail to see the bigger picture. While ganks will always be a part of EVE, they would be far less prevalent if not for the sheer boredom most PvP'ers are faced with right now. While these same people are screaming for more safety, they fail to realize that the same protection is enjoyed by that mining bot in your system as well as his pals, #2 - #20.

Ganking, while not a pleasant experience to be on the receiving end of I admit, doesn't make my blood boil nearly as much as seeing someone whine in local that such a mechanic exists while afk'ing in a belt for hours on end. They just sit there, idle, not even mining and chances are, they won't even get ganked for being a moron.


Totally agree. I actually to'd and fro'd with Seleene last week about a few points and something I said to him was - one of the things I love about eve is the fact that I can sit in a system not unlike sitting in chair at a cafe watching people go by their busy lives. You can literally sit there wondering what a particular group or person is up to. EVERY gameplay style adds to the experience that is EVE - something I think people like mittani completely miss and look right past.

EVE isn't a political debate about right and wrong as a sandbox. It's an experience. If they added a proper bounty hunting system to the game, I would be completely for it - even if I knew I'd never take part in that particular playstyle.

I am all for adding to or enhancing current systems.

But one thing I can say with experience is the mining and industry side of the game has long been overdue for change - even radical change. But like you also, I am well versed enough to know it's not about our ships, it's about how and where they are used.

CCP has changed at least a half dozen parts of the game since inception which have indirectly effected mining alone. I'm sure they have also had impacts on market, trade and production. Whether it be PI effecting POS fuel prices for t2 production, small mining corps or if it has been the advent of drone regions or wormholes with ABC ores in them. All these things have effected the production cycle somewhere - it needs a good looking into by people who know how best to change the mechanics to fix these careers.

.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-03-11 09:49:39 UTC
Rykuss wrote:
So, having said all that, Seleene and The Mittani don't need my votes as they are shoe-ins. My votes went to Hans because, in my opinion, he is the most logical choice and his platform speaks for itself.


Whilst Hans seems a decent choice, Seleene is not nearly as much a sure thing as you seem to think he is. His high voting turn out in CSM6 was largely down to the Southern bloc vote, who now regard him as a traitor for leaving to join PL. And since PL are putting their votes behind Elise, Seleene no longer has a base and is competing with a huge range of candidates for the votes of the unaligned randoms of Empire, many of whom are likely to be turned off by his membership of a 0.0 powerbloc.

Don't be too surprised if Seleene ends up as an alt or misses out altogether.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Rykuss
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2012-03-11 11:41:58 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Rykuss wrote:
So, having said all that, Seleene and The Mittani don't need my votes as they are shoe-ins. My votes went to Hans because, in my opinion, he is the most logical choice and his platform speaks for itself.


Whilst Hans seems a decent choice, Seleene is not nearly as much a sure thing as you seem to think he is. His high voting turn out in CSM6 was largely down to the Southern bloc vote, who now regard him as a traitor for leaving to join PL. And since PL are putting their votes behind Elise, Seleene no longer has a base and is competing with a huge range of candidates for the votes of the unaligned randoms of Empire, many of whom are likely to be turned off by his membership of a 0.0 powerbloc.

Don't be too surprised if Seleene ends up as an alt or misses out altogether.


Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Very interesting indeed.

Revolution Rising wrote:
CCP has changed at least a half dozen parts of the game since inception which have indirectly effected mining alone. I'm sure they have also had impacts on market, trade and production. Whether it be PI effecting POS fuel prices for t2 production, small mining corps or if it has been the advent of drone regions or wormholes with ABC ores in them. All these things have effected the production cycle somewhere - it needs a good looking into by people who know how best to change the mechanics to fix these careers.


Right but any changes should be made carefully and after other areas have been addressed first. This is especially true for the examples you've already given. Besides, war is the current theme for the changes coming. I don't know what CCP's plans are after that but I wouldn't count on an industry expansion coming anytime this year.

You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer.
Carl Thunderthise
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-03-11 18:52:48 UTC
I'd vote for Issler: CSM experience, a balanced agenda, and no apparent fingers in the nullsec pie, leaving the nullsec obsessed members of the CSM to sort out their stuff without interference, bringing a better balance overall.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#48 - 2012-03-11 20:53:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Carl Thunderthise wrote:
I'd vote for Issler: CSM experience, a balanced agenda, and no apparent fingers in the nullsec pie, leaving the nullsec obsessed members of the CSM to sort out their stuff without interference, bringing a better balance overall.


Love to know what pie exactly you mean. There seems to be this perception that people in nullsec are only doing things that are entirely in their own interests. This really isn't the case. Even mittani - whom I have made no real effort to like at all - acceeds to the view that tech moons should go, etc..

Unlike the perception that seems to be around that these people haven't done the right thing by the eve playerbase in the past - in their view - is dead wrong. The real issue as far as I can see is the fact that they haven't really tried to include all the eve players in their decisions and are just plain wrong about some things - like low-sec.

But in either case - there is no pie, nor fingers in it.

Much as I like Issler's "simplistic" view of "I am for mining" and while it attracts many to her cause, I don't see it as a valid overall platform for CSM. It's no different from the mittani saying "I am for goonish activity" and gaining votes through that simplistic platform. It's a cheap way to gain votes from people who don't wish to put the time or effort into understanding the candidates and their platforms. It's also one of the reasons I created this thread.

p.s. The cake was also a lie.
p.p.s. And there were fingers in that too apparently.

.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-03-11 22:18:23 UTC
Carl Thunderthise wrote:
I'd vote for Issler: CSM experience, a balanced agenda, and no apparent fingers in the nullsec pie, leaving the nullsec obsessed members of the CSM to sort out their stuff without interference, bringing a better balance overall.


'Balanced agenda' is pretty much a euphemism for 'no opinions about anything'.

And prior experience of the 'achieve nothing except adding items to backlog' CSMs isn't exactly something to shout about either.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#50 - 2012-03-13 06:12:40 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Carl Thunderthise wrote:
I'd vote for Issler: CSM experience, a balanced agenda, and no apparent fingers in the nullsec pie, leaving the nullsec obsessed members of the CSM to sort out their stuff without interference, bringing a better balance overall.


'Balanced agenda' is pretty much a euphemism for 'no opinions about anything'.

And prior experience of the 'achieve nothing except adding items to backlog' CSMs isn't exactly something to shout about either.


Yeah it's easy to balance a grain of sand.

.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#51 - 2012-03-13 08:21:24 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Carl Thunderthise wrote:
I'd vote for Issler: CSM experience, a balanced agenda, and no apparent fingers in the nullsec pie, leaving the nullsec obsessed members of the CSM to sort out their stuff without interference, bringing a better balance overall.


Love to know what pie exactly you mean. There seems to be this perception that people in nullsec are only doing things that are entirely in their own interests. This really isn't the case. Even mittani - whom I have made no real effort to like at all - acceeds to the view that tech moons should go, etc..

Unlike the perception that seems to be around that these people haven't done the right thing by the eve playerbase in the past - in their view - is dead wrong. The real issue as far as I can see is the fact that they haven't really tried to include all the eve players in their decisions and are just plain wrong about some things - like low-sec.

But in either case - there is no pie, nor fingers in it.

Much as I like Issler's "simplistic" view of "I am for mining" and while it attracts many to her cause, I don't see it as a valid overall platform for CSM. It's no different from the mittani saying "I am for goonish activity" and gaining votes through that simplistic platform. It's a cheap way to gain votes from people who don't wish to put the time or effort into understanding the candidates and their platforms. It's also one of the reasons I created this thread.

p.s. The cake was also a lie.
p.p.s. And there were fingers in that too apparently.


The difference is the areas that Mittens focuses on have gotten CCP attention.

Mining, which has to be the activity of the largest Eve player base has been virtually ignored, or even in terms of ore distribution nerfed over the last eight years.

And to say mining is ALL I will be for in the CSM 7 is inaccurate. I understand you have to look at Eve holistically. I will however be more representative of the average high sec dweller than any of the other current CSM candidates.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate
Taiwanistan
#52 - 2012-03-13 12:05:48 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Carl Thunderthise wrote:
I'd vote for Issler: CSM experience, a balanced agenda, and no apparent fingers in the nullsec pie, leaving the nullsec obsessed members of the CSM to sort out their stuff without interference, bringing a better balance overall.


Love to know what pie exactly you mean. There seems to be this perception that people in nullsec are only doing things that are entirely in their own interests. This really isn't the case. Even mittani - whom I have made no real effort to like at all - acceeds to the view that tech moons should go, etc..

Unlike the perception that seems to be around that these people haven't done the right thing by the eve playerbase in the past - in their view - is dead wrong. The real issue as far as I can see is the fact that they haven't really tried to include all the eve players in their decisions and are just plain wrong about some things - like low-sec.

But in either case - there is no pie, nor fingers in it.

Much as I like Issler's "simplistic" view of "I am for mining" and while it attracts many to her cause, I don't see it as a valid overall platform for CSM. It's no different from the mittani saying "I am for goonish activity" and gaining votes through that simplistic platform. It's a cheap way to gain votes from people who don't wish to put the time or effort into understanding the candidates and their platforms. It's also one of the reasons I created this thread.

p.s. The cake was also a lie.
p.p.s. And there were fingers in that too apparently.


The difference is the areas that Mittens focuses on have gotten CCP attention.

Mining, which has to be the activity of the largest Eve player base has been virtually ignored, or even in terms of ore distribution nerfed over the last eight years.

And to say mining is ALL I will be for in the CSM 7 is inaccurate. I understand you have to look at Eve holistically. I will however be more representative of the average high sec dweller than any of the other current CSM candidates.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate

explain your wis taint

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Frying Doom
#53 - 2012-03-13 13:55:23 UTC
Taiwanistan wrote:
explain your wis taint


I believe Issler has explained this many, many times.

Wis really needs a slogan.

Walking in Stations.
If Done Right, Would Really Add a Whole New Dimension To EVE.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#54 - 2012-03-14 07:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Frying Doom wrote:
Taiwanistan wrote:
explain your wis taint


I believe Issler has explained this many, many times.

Wis really needs a slogan.

Walking in Stations.
If Done Right, Would Really Add a Whole New Dimension To EVE.


I'm totally convinced. What we need in EVE is a new dimension while all the other facets of the game languish in the light that is WIS - because that will make us all feel better.

I mean honestly, I'm not a WIS hater per se, but while so many other areas of the game are still found wanting which are CORE BUILDING BLOCKS to the game, WIS just isn't an issue, it's not a thought - people have already made this clear. Personally while mining, industry, structure shooting, sovereignty, are all lacking, I don't want to really see much in the way of new additions to the game.

And if I WERE to want something new, I'd want new paintjobs before some stupid avatar so I can dance at the club in the station.

I fail to see how WIS is a platform, I fail to see how "I am for miners" is a platform. It's cheap superfluous garbage and I really hope people can see beyond it and vote for people who actually have ideas.

.
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon
#55 - 2012-03-14 07:59:26 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Not to argue, but I'm a two time CSM member with extensive industrial and mining experience and am the only one that has focused Mining, the very base of industry in Eve as my primary CSM 7 area of interest.

So I'm not sure whose alt you are but it looks like you are in someone's pocket with this post.

Issler Dainze
Eight years of industry in Eve!


Which is it? I'm an Alt or in someone's pocket?

I've been following the CSM elections quite closely this year and found many capable candidates.

To be honest the tone of your post is just one facet of why I wouldn't put you forward as a candidate that people could rely upon.

Perhaps if you took more time to engender yourself with your remarks and tackle real issues with real solutions that might change.

Take the time to re-read your remak above objectively. It sounds like some teenage guy about to have a forum-tantrum.

Not the CSM candidate I am after - Not to argue of course!


Doesn't sound like someone having a forum-tantrum to me, she is only speaking the truth - it is the gametype she plays on a daily basis. :|

www.shipsofeve.com
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#56 - 2012-03-14 08:49:07 UTC
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Not to argue, but I'm a two time CSM member with extensive industrial and mining experience and am the only one that has focused Mining, the very base of industry in Eve as my primary CSM 7 area of interest.

So I'm not sure whose alt you are but it looks like you are in someone's pocket with this post.

Issler Dainze
Eight years of industry in Eve!


Which is it? I'm an Alt or in someone's pocket?

I've been following the CSM elections quite closely this year and found many capable candidates.

To be honest the tone of your post is just one facet of why I wouldn't put you forward as a candidate that people could rely upon.

Perhaps if you took more time to engender yourself with your remarks and tackle real issues with real solutions that might change.

Take the time to re-read your remak above objectively. It sounds like some teenage guy about to have a forum-tantrum.

Not the CSM candidate I am after - Not to argue of course!


Doesn't sound like someone having a forum-tantrum to me, she is only speaking the truth - it is the gametype she plays on a daily basis. :|


You're not even on topic. What gameplay? She was reminding me of WHO SHE IS.

And of course the obvious logic tells me that if you have to remind people who you are then it probably doesn't matter too much to them regarding who you are.

Not to argue of course.

.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#57 - 2012-03-14 17:11:52 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:
Not to argue, but I'm a two time CSM member with extensive industrial and mining experience and am the only one that has focused Mining, the very base of industry in Eve as my primary CSM 7 area of interest.

So I'm not sure whose alt you are but it looks like you are in someone's pocket with this post.

Issler Dainze
Eight years of industry in Eve!


Which is it? I'm an Alt or in someone's pocket?

I've been following the CSM elections quite closely this year and found many capable candidates.

To be honest the tone of your post is just one facet of why I wouldn't put you forward as a candidate that people could rely upon.

Perhaps if you took more time to engender yourself with your remarks and tackle real issues with real solutions that might change.

Take the time to re-read your remak above objectively. It sounds like some teenage guy about to have a forum-tantrum.

Not the CSM candidate I am after - Not to argue of course!


Doesn't sound like someone having a forum-tantrum to me, she is only speaking the truth - it is the gametype she plays on a daily basis. :|


You're not even on topic. What gameplay? She was reminding me of WHO SHE IS.

And of course the obvious logic tells me that if you have to remind people who you are then it probably doesn't matter too much to them regarding who you are.

Not to argue of course.


I find I rarely have to remind folks who I am. What I do find is somehow I've become the target of a handful of folks, usually goons that like to repeat the same nonsensical statements about what I've done, not done, stand for, stand against and take every opportunity to include the word "pants" and "barbies" in all their posts. In most cases if the forums were actually moderated to comply with the posting rules, their posts wouldn't be in the forums for long as they are always content free.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#58 - 2012-03-15 09:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Issler Dainze wrote:
I find I rarely have to remind folks who I am. What I do find is somehow I've become the target of a handful of folks, usually goons that like to repeat the same nonsensical statements about what I've done, not done, stand for, stand against and take every opportunity to include the word "pants" and "barbies" in all their posts. In most cases if the forums were actually moderated to comply with the posting rules, their posts wouldn't be in the forums for long as they are always content free.

Issler Dainze
The Miner's Friend
CSM 7 Candidate


I'm not a goon nor interested in their point of view. I do think however, that WIS is an unimportant part of the game currently - and until after DUST is released should stay that way.

There are innumerable issues to do with basic gameplay - like mining - that need to be fixed first. I can see WIS in the future possibly being a meeting place between the two games with the planning rooms etc. that seems to be being bandied about. Sure, the imagination can go wild with the prospects.

The problem is, that we are still waiting to see any change in industrial concerns generally mining, manufacturing, invention, trade etc.. - I think Mittani last year commented that if they ran every production queue in deklein flat out making ammo 24/7 they could build ammo for a month and blow it all in a single 5 minute battle - things of this nature are even a 0.0 industry concern.
Structure shooting is still a huge issue for large numbers of players.
There's no defined role for industry corps apart from living in empire.
Moon Mining needs to be fundamentally changed.
I know Low-sec in general needs some serious modification so that people not into blob warfare can still pew in peace - not to mention there's no industry there either.

And after that if you want to add some new features... there's always the bounty system or nerfing the incursions or factional warfare.

I don't see how WIS will fit into CCP's plans over the next year, anyone who wants to bump one of the above issues - which everyone in the last csm seems to have agreed need changing has to be ******* mad?

Which one will you take CCP staff off of, in order to promote more WIS ? It's crazy-talk.

It's just plainly not the time, I'm not saying next year won't be the time, but right now don't you think there are more pressing concerns?

.
Frying Doom
#59 - 2012-03-15 10:34:19 UTC
Why look to politicians and people who care about the next 12 months. Politicians only worrying about plans that will occur in their political terms, are destroying the planet. With no-one ever worried about what happens after they leave office the planets people are slowly being doomed to shallow thinking.

Wis and so many other parts of this game need to be looked at as, where the game should head and what we would like it to be in the future not just in terms of the next patch or next 12 months.

Also the CSM's thinking should not be, what does a CSM member want for them selves and what they can they convince other people they made the game better, by pushing narrow focus of issues. Without worrying about the game as whole.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Mintrolio
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-03-15 10:38:32 UTC
CONFRMIGN BEIGN HONSET AS I ALWAY AM

ALSO I AM SRE YOU SOHULD VOTIGN FUR ME. ALSO I AM VER INDUSTROS AND AM LIK INDUSTREY TO.

ALSO IRL MINE HOME TOWN OF PRYPIAT WAS ONSE VER INDUSTROS - NOT BEIGN DISSEMBLER FROM EVE INDUSTEY.

PLESE BE VOTIGN MINTROLIO.

MINTROLIO FUR CSM7