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the plate/armour rig conudrum,
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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-09-22 17:49:00 UTC
or, ideas on how to improve the synergy between plates/armour rigs and shield extenders/shield rigs.



ok so there is this issue where the shield rigs provide penalties that are much less damaging to the ship than armour rigs.

so how to make it sorta... "balanced" in a way that doesn't affect the ship that hard?

simple: how about making armour rigs decrease shield HP instead speed? Granted you lose on the total EHP in the end but I suppose maintaining battle mobility might be enough to counterbalance this issue?

yes yes it's not a perfect solution and this was one idea that was born while I was emptying my bowels in the bathroom, but hey, it's still an idea.



as for plates... well, anyone has a good idea to them? all I could think of was to reduce mass penaltyStraight

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Aamrr
#2 - 2011-09-22 17:56:09 UTC
Capacitor penalty for propulsion modules? They've gotta push harder to get the ship moving?

Just an idea.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-09-22 17:57:18 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Capacitor penalty for propulsion modules? They've gotta push harder to get the ship moving?

Just an idea.

that's actually interesting.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Aamrr
#4 - 2011-09-22 18:03:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
All the boys say that, but I think they're just trying to get into my pants.

Edit: They're very comfortable, you know.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-09-22 18:05:48 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
All the boys say that, but I think they're just trying to get into my pants.

Edit: They're very comfortable, you know.



and while I won't deny that your pants might be quite comfortable, I was truthfull in my agreement with your idea.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Joss56
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-09-22 18:09:32 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Capacitor penalty for propulsion modules? They've gotta push harder to get the ship moving?

Just an idea.



The penalty already in place hurts has hell on ships (Gallente) with weak capacitors high fiting requirements for weapons and let's forget the local rep heh, useless mods just for the fun of filling the market Lol

Rather agree with Grim on the %reduced shield, on the other side shield would be almost on pair since they don't have almost nothing has armour the sign radius is not that much of a prob (it isn't now and it shouldn't be one after this kind of change)

/boas
Aamrr
#7 - 2011-09-22 18:47:28 UTC
I think most Gallente pilots would be more than happy to spend another 5% capacitor on their MWDs, if it meant they could get into range that much quicker.
Joss56
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-22 20:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Joss56
Aamrr wrote:
I think most Gallente pilots would be more than happy to spend another 5% capacitor on their MWDs, if it meant they could get into range that much quicker.



+10% speed implants already exist and those don't change a single peanut

+500% radius penalty

Cap penalty on hulls already with weak caps/pg/cpu, hell you can cap out yourself just by shooting isn't that ridiculous?

Op distance for some theoretical +10% dps ridiculous when the dps in fall off is one of the worst in game if not the worst one already.

Tracking issues

Mass ... you fly concrete stuff

Just throwing this out here but +5% more speed even base one wouldn't change anything else than make people code for peanuts.

Edit: actually an +100% sped bonus for +5% grid use on top of the already 500% would just help the ship get close to the target thx to inertia (once webed and mwd shut down), wouldn't change some other issues like dmg application and some supposed fotm dps
Aamrr
#9 - 2011-09-22 21:05:42 UTC
Except it's not just 5%. It's anywhere from 5-9% per rig. Your typical triple-trimarked megathron is going about 83% of its normal speed once you throw those rigs on it. Getting a speed boost that significant would certainly help -- and while you'd certainly be burning more capacitor on your propulsion while you get into range, you'd be able to do so much more effectively -- which means you wouldn't need to run your propulsion as long anyway.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#10 - 2011-09-22 21:30:45 UTC
Potential doublepost, damn these forums.

But anyway I think an elegant solution would be to have armor rigs increase mass/decrease agility (either or) significantly, while actually increasing top speed. Make gallente ships handle like bricks that have the speed to burn into range but lack the agility to kite.

Hell, you could just give them all fitting bonuses/speed bonuses to oversize AB's (would still leave BS's in a lurch, but you could work out something similar) to give roughly the same effect and let them burn into range despite scrams.
SpaceSquirrels
#11 - 2011-09-22 23:50:30 UTC
Could make a silly argument that the armor rigs cover sensor areas on the ship...thus longer lock time or effect mid slot mods in some way.

Though I do like the less agility v. less speed suggestion.
Goose99
#12 - 2011-09-23 00:44:43 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
there is this issue where the shield rigs provide penalties that are much less damaging to the ship than armour rigs.

Straight


The problem with your assumption is it's false...Roll

How much does velocity penalty of armor rigs affect that blob Abaddon that's stationary anyway? How much will increased sig affect it? It's one of the reasons why armor is more popular than shield for blob BS.

Of course it affects small ships, which is why you don't trimark that Dramiel. Of course you can just change penalty only for small ships to something that's unimportant for them, but then what's the point of a penalty? We might as well just remove it altogether. New change whose sole purpose is breaking existing mechanic is not the way to go.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-09-23 01:11:05 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
there is this issue where the shield rigs provide penalties that are much less damaging to the ship than armour rigs.

Straight


The problem with your assumption is it's false...Roll

How much does velocity penalty of armor rigs affect that blob Abaddon that's stationary anyway? How much will increased sig affect it? It's one of the reasons why armor is more popular than shield for blob BS.

Of course it affects small ships, which is why you don't trimark that Dramiel. Of course you can just change penalty only for small ships to something that's unimportant for them, but then what's the point of a penalty? We might as well just remove it altogether. New change whose sole purpose is breaking existing mechanic is not the way to go.



I did said this was something I thought about in the bathroomP


also, it's more about synergy between shield buffers and armour buffers. sig bloom is much less penalizing than speed penalty, or at the very least, the sig bloom that shield rigs provide, compared to the size of the speed penalty armour rigs have.

also the abbadon is more because of the resistance bonus it has, allied to the performance the ship can do, damage wise, and not solely because of armour rigs. If you could slam 8 1400's on the rohk without the use of fitting mods, you would see abbadons relegated to being solely beam ships and they weren't as popular as they are now.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Goose99
#14 - 2011-09-23 01:29:47 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
there is this issue where the shield rigs provide penalties that are much less damaging to the ship than armour rigs.

Straight


The problem with your assumption is it's false...Roll

How much does velocity penalty of armor rigs affect that blob Abaddon that's stationary anyway? How much will increased sig affect it? It's one of the reasons why armor is more popular than shield for blob BS.

Of course it affects small ships, which is why you don't trimark that Dramiel. Of course you can just change penalty only for small ships to something that's unimportant for them, but then what's the point of a penalty? We might as well just remove it altogether. New change whose sole purpose is breaking existing mechanic is not the way to go.



I did said this was something I thought about in the bathroomP


also, it's more about synergy between shield buffers and armour buffers. sig bloom is much less penalizing than speed penalty, or at the very least, the sig bloom that shield rigs provide, compared to the size of the speed penalty armour rigs have.

also the abbadon is more because of the resistance bonus it has, allied to the performance the ship can do, damage wise, and not solely because of armour rigs. If you could slam 8 1400's on the rohk without the use of fitting mods, you would see abbadons relegated to being solely beam ships and they weren't as popular as they are now.


Rokh, heh? You can slap those on a Maelstrom.P

Sig bloom is quite bad on those ships/fits you just mentioned. It means other people's 1400s will hit that much more easily. As for velocity... it's not as if you'll be speed tanking anyway.

Penalties affect different ships in different ways. There's nothing wrong with that. Working as intended.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2011-09-23 03:03:51 UTC
What about a reduction to the effects of stasis webs on plates/trimarked ships?

Greater mass requires greater work to move. It's also harder to stop, which is both a blessing and a curse.

It knows what you think.
Goose99
#16 - 2011-09-23 03:09:08 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
What about a reduction to the effects of stasis webs on plates/trimarked ships?

Greater mass requires greater work to move. It's also harder to stop, which is both a blessing and a curse.


Bonus instead of penalty?Roll
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-09-23 16:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyniac
Don't change the penalty

Change how the rigging skills work instead.


Rather than having a 10% reduction in penalty per level have something like a 15-20% reduction of penalty per level. (20% might be a bit much)

The consequence of this is that instead of making a blanket "everyone gets to benefit" situation you actually let players have a better choice. Want to not have your ship slowed like molasses by those rigs? Train up... Kinda fits with EVE rewarding long term planning and all that jazz too.


EDIT - if you want to be real evil - introduce advanced rigging skills that give an additional 10% penalty reduction per level so with 5/5 normal/advanced rigging you don't have a penalty from the rigs Shocked
Aamrr
#18 - 2011-09-23 17:18:12 UTC
We could also do away with rig penalties entirely, instead using the skills to improve the performance of the rigs themselves. Suppose that all the rigs gave only 80% of their current benefit, but skills gave a 5% improvement to the rigs per level -- so a trimark would give only 12% more armor, but with armor rigging 5 it'd give the full 15% bonus it does now without the speed penalty.

Just a thought.
Fraa Bjorn
Cell 317
#19 - 2011-09-23 18:55:33 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
We could also do away with rig penalties entirely, instead using the skills to improve the performance of the rigs themselves. Suppose that all the rigs gave only 80% of their current benefit, but skills gave a 5% improvement to the rigs per level -- so a trimark would give only 12% more armor, but with armor rigging 5 it'd give the full 15% bonus it does now without the speed penalty.

Just a thought.


Yay! Great idea! =)

All games have QQ, but only Eve has Q.Q
Jacob Stov
#20 - 2011-09-23 19:14:40 UTC
Strange. I never see Amarr whining about the penalties of armor riggs. Give Gallente web strength riggs as an alternative to trimarks. New shiny stuff, crafted from underused salvage crap.
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