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Blood and Faith

Author
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#81 - 2012-03-09 15:08:26 UTC
I have a question for you, Captain Areth. Well, more of a hypothetical.

Suppose I were to present two 'offerings.' One is the blood of a capsuleer clone, which I have taken to presume is highly prized for its qualities. The other is a nanofactured blood that has never been inside a human body but is chemically and biologically indistinguishable from the first sample. Would you be able to detect the difference, and if so, how? Further, what implications would there be for the use of the second votive offering? Thank you.



Please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors. I have a neural imbalance which affects my ability to communicate.
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-03-09 15:39:09 UTC
To your first question there would obviously be no way of knowing if it is a biological match to the blood of a clone.

To your second question the answer is a spiritual one, using blood that has never been within a living clone body, or a normal human for that matter, is worthless to us as a symbol of power and strength, to truly taste power, feel it and make use of it in ritual meditation along the path of enlightenment the blood must come from a living being.

To myself and my crew blood is life, it represents immortality and power and any substitute is unacceptable.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#83 - 2012-03-09 15:54:58 UTC
Khazarn Areth wrote:

To myself and my crew blood is life, it represents immortality and power and any substitute is unacceptable.


I also imagine for dear Areth that an artificial source would also remove the... thrill of the chase, for lack of a better term.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Blood Onyx
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-03-09 16:45:10 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
I have a question for you, Captain Areth. Well, more of a hypothetical.

Suppose I were to present two 'offerings.' One is the blood of a capsuleer clone, which I have taken to presume is highly prized for its qualities. The other is a nanofactured blood that has never been inside a human body but is chemically and biologically indistinguishable from the first sample. Would you be able to detect the difference, and if so, how? Further, what implications would there be for the use of the second votive offering? Thank you.


The important thing to recall is that, although it is a universally acknowledged symbol among Sabik cults across the cluster, blood is still a symbol. A synthetic, manufactured product is meaningless, because it has never been alive, and thus has no symbolism of relevance.
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-03-09 18:03:32 UTC
I would imagine some of the more liberal Sabik cults, those one would mostly find with halfhearted teenage adherents shambling and shuffling the night away while calling it dancing in some night club on a Federation world, would find manufactured and engineered blood to be acceptable. It may not come directly from a living being, but it has the same capacity to sustain a living being. In that way one could interpret it as still having some essence of life. On top of that it would be arguably more pure in a sense that it had never been part of a person before and therefore never part of the weaknesses of that person.

If anything various Sabik cults accepting engineered blood would actually have some precedent. It is widely accepted that the use of blood in Sabik rituals is analogous to traditional Amarrian use of Sacred Waters for rituals. And it is a matter of simple historic fact that as the Empire grew, the church had to locate and designate different sources of water that are considered sacred.
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2012-03-09 22:07:32 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:


If anything various Sabik cults accepting engineered blood would actually have some precedent. It is widely accepted that the use of blood in Sabik rituals is analogous to traditional Amarrian use of Sacred Waters for rituals. And it is a matter of simple historic fact that as the Empire grew, the church had to locate and designate different sources of water that are considered sacred.


Whilst this is a possiblity for the 'milder' cults of Sani Sabik that are embedded within Gallente society, who would no doubt need to move with the laws in place and limit what blood they can use depending on how 'underground' they are, it would not hold with the completely independant Sani Sabik such as The Covenant (the reasons are included in my previous comment)

Clone and lesser blood is available to us in huge amounts, literally 'on tap' thanks to Covenant scientists, Hunt-and-Grab raids and our vast blood farms built to serve the vast demand for the life force needed in our many rituals and the consecration of Raider vessels.

The said 'fake' blood could be considered acceptable if it were filtered through a live host of worthy power.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#87 - 2012-03-10 09:16:02 UTC
The human farm is for farming humans.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.

Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2012-03-10 16:47:14 UTC
Blood Onyx wrote:
A Blooder acts as they believe is correct, takes want they want and does as they wish, answering to no one. A Sabik acts on their own beliefs, but does not presume to evangelise or consider themselves to be above all reproach.


So the beliefs of the blooder/sabik are whatever the individual wants them to be (aka "their own beliefs"), there are no set tenets that followers must adhere to. Why are we having this discussion at all then?
Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2012-03-10 17:01:52 UTC
Blood Onyx wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
I have a question for you, Captain Areth. Well, more of a hypothetical.

Suppose I were to present two 'offerings.' One is the blood of a capsuleer clone, which I have taken to presume is highly prized for its qualities. The other is a nanofactured blood that has never been inside a human body but is chemically and biologically indistinguishable from the first sample. Would you be able to detect the difference, and if so, how? Further, what implications would there be for the use of the second votive offering? Thank you.


The important thing to recall is that, although it is a universally acknowledged symbol among Sabik cults across the cluster, blood is still a symbol. A synthetic, manufactured product is meaningless, because it has never been alive, and thus has no symbolism of relevance.


So the symbol has to be real to be a fit symbol of itself... What?

If the blood's symbolism depends directly on it's rality, then it's not a symbol at all, but reality.

Whew! You must be tired from all those leaps of logic.
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-03-10 17:02:02 UTC
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:

So the beliefs of the blooder/sabik are whatever the individual wants them to be (aka "their own beliefs"), there are no set tenets that followers must adhere to. Why are we having this discussion at all then?


Because as stated before the majority of Sabik Sects follow a core belief system, many based around similar principles.

This discussion is intended to educate those ignorant of Sani Sabik in any form.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2012-03-10 17:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vallek Arkonnis
Khazarn Areth wrote:
we take all the captures blood slowly, to make them whole at last.


Ha! Seems the only ones not being "made whole" are the cultists themselves..

Pity, that
Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2012-03-10 17:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vallek Arkonnis
Khazarn Areth wrote:
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:

So the beliefs of the blooder/sabik are whatever the individual wants them to be (aka "their own beliefs"), there are no set tenets that followers must adhere to. Why are we having this discussion at all then?


Because as stated before the majority of Sabik Sects follow a core belief system, many based around similar principles.

This discussion is intended to educate those ignorant of Sani Sabik in any form.


I've read this entire thread and there is yet no explanation as to what, precisely, that core belief system is. I don't think you guys even know either, seeing as your OP is asking what it means to us, then switching to educate us on what the "core beliefs" are and failing to deliver. Seems like a veiled way of asking us to teach you what it is.
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2012-03-10 17:48:10 UTC
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Khazarn Areth wrote:
we take all the captures blood slowly, to make them whole at last.


Ha! Seems the only ones not being "made whole" are the cultists themselves..

Pity, that


All members of The Covenant share the journey of those being enlightened, we guide them along the path to wholeness.

And i have indeed spoken of the three commonly held core beliefs/rituals:

1. Blood is used in all Sabik rituals though exactly how it is used differs between each cult.

2.The belief that there are people out there greater than their fellow man and through this realisation they can achive great things.

3.That immortality, be it physical or spiritual, is within the reach of any who follow the Sabik faith.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#94 - 2012-03-11 10:36:29 UTC
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Khazarn Areth wrote:
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:

So the beliefs of the blooder/sabik are whatever the individual wants them to be (aka "their own beliefs"), there are no set tenets that followers must adhere to. Why are we having this discussion at all then?


Because as stated before the majority of Sabik Sects follow a core belief system, many based around similar principles.

This discussion is intended to educate those ignorant of Sani Sabik in any form.


I've read this entire thread and there is yet no explanation as to what, precisely, that core belief system is. I don't think you guys even know either, seeing as your OP is asking what it means to us, then switching to educate us on what the "core beliefs" are and failing to deliver. Seems like a veiled way of asking us to teach you what it is.



That may be because for many capsuleer Sanik Sabik adherents, the "core beliefs" seem to vary from day to day according to what they find expedient.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2012-03-11 13:09:12 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

That may be because for many capsuleer Sanik Sabik adherents, the "core beliefs" seem to vary from day to day according to what they find expedient.


In what way, Mr. Blake?

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Hooch Flux
Flux Unlimited
#96 - 2012-03-13 01:08:08 UTC
Khazarn Areth wrote:
So, Capsuleers of the IGS, what does Sani Sabik mean to you?


Nutters!

Graelyn wrote:
Heresy!

You will be Reclaimed!


Do you really want them? Damaged goods and all that.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#97 - 2012-03-13 04:08:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Vitalia
Rodj Blake wrote:
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Khazarn Areth wrote:
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:

So the beliefs of the blooder/sabik are whatever the individual wants them to be (aka "their own beliefs"), there are no set tenets that followers must adhere to. Why are we having this discussion at all then?


Because as stated before the majority of Sabik Sects follow a core belief system, many based around similar principles.

This discussion is intended to educate those ignorant of Sani Sabik in any form.


I've read this entire thread and there is yet no explanation as to what, precisely, that core belief system is. I don't think you guys even know either, seeing as your OP is asking what it means to us, then switching to educate us on what the "core beliefs" are and failing to deliver. Seems like a veiled way of asking us to teach you what it is.



That may be because for many capsuleer Sanik Sabik adherents, the "core beliefs" seem to vary from day to day according to what they find expedient.


And Imperial loyalists of course have no variety of religious beliefs, practices, and political differences among the faithful. How silly of me to forget.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#98 - 2012-03-14 00:34:28 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:

And Imperial loyalists of course have no variety of religious beliefs, practices, and political differences among the faithful. How silly of me to forget.


Heresy is heresy regardless.
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2012-03-14 13:32:11 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:

And Imperial loyalists of course have no variety of religious beliefs, practices, and political differences among the faithful. How silly of me to forget.


Heresy is heresy regardless.


Only to those who regard it as heresy.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Blood Onyx
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2012-03-15 13:39:42 UTC
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Blood Onyx wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
I have a question for you, Captain Areth. Well, more of a hypothetical.

Suppose I were to present two 'offerings.' One is the blood of a capsuleer clone, which I have taken to presume is highly prized for its qualities. The other is a nanofactured blood that has never been inside a human body but is chemically and biologically indistinguishable from the first sample. Would you be able to detect the difference, and if so, how? Further, what implications would there be for the use of the second votive offering? Thank you.


The important thing to recall is that, although it is a universally acknowledged symbol among Sabik cults across the cluster, blood is still a symbol. A synthetic, manufactured product is meaningless, because it has never been alive, and thus has no symbolism of relevance.


So the symbol has to be real to be a fit symbol of itself... What?

If the blood's symbolism depends directly on it's rality, then it's not a symbol at all, but reality.

Whew! You must be tired from all those leaps of logic.


Amusing, but you miss the point.

Blood is a symbol of life and the life-force of its donor. A synthetic, lifeless substitute cannot represent life, because it has no donor to provide this life-force.

If blood rites were based upon blood itself with nothing else involved, what would its relevance be?

From my understanding, research and personal beliefs, there are three primary types of blood ritual. The bonding of believers (popularised by the Federation 'sabik-lite', to borrow the term, but not unique to that); in which case, the use of a substitute would be lacking in meaning, for what would really be exchanged?

The second - the draining of an enemy to strengthen oneself. In which case, why would you wish for a substitute? That question aside, a substitute would have no connection to this enemy, and therefore you could derive no strength from them.

The third - the blooding conducted by Blood Raiders, most notably. The details I cannot speak of, as it is not a practice I undertake or comprehend; but once again, a substitute has no connection, no personality, no energy, no life - and no point.