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CCP, please update PI base prices for taxes
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Scion Lex
The Unspoken Ones
Hole Control
#21 - 2012-03-07 19:49:16 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Tax should be in integer number not in % of artificial prices.

This is your problem.



Agreed.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-03-07 21:22:58 UTC
Diamaht Nevain wrote:

I see what you mean, you are skipping tax tiers by starting lower. You won't be able to go from P1 to P4 with one planet though.

Another issue that comes up is how much you are paying if you want to have 4 or 5 planets in a production chain. I guess i'm just frustrated because this system seems to limit what you can do.


You can. Make broadcast nodes, import the glass (or whatever the thing made from Silicon and something else that's way cheaper than making from P1 + one more of the P2s) and have at least 4 in your CC upgrades skill. That or have 5 in the skill and just make it completely.

Of course the downside is you can only really load up like 12 hours worth of production at any given time due to limitations in your storage facilities. It's a pain, but if you have a small amount of money and want to make a pretty hefty per hour ISK amount 1 jump from a main trade hub at the cost of constant operation, it's not terrible. Of course prices may have changed since I did the math, but you should be able to squeeze out profit at least equal to the tier of taxes you skipped.

Actually P1->P3 might be better (less hassle, more hours of production queued up, lower skill requirements to get some production going).
Diamaht Nevain
EVE University
Ivy League
#23 - 2012-03-07 23:30:37 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
Diamaht Nevain wrote:

I see what you mean, you are skipping tax tiers by starting lower. You won't be able to go from P1 to P4 with one planet though.

Another issue that comes up is how much you are paying if you want to have 4 or 5 planets in a production chain. I guess i'm just frustrated because this system seems to limit what you can do.


You can. Make broadcast nodes, import the glass (or whatever the thing made from Silicon and something else that's way cheaper than making from P1 + one more of the P2s) and have at least 4 in your CC upgrades skill. That or have 5 in the skill and just make it completely.

Of course the downside is you can only really load up like 12 hours worth of production at any given time due to limitations in your storage facilities. It's a pain, but if you have a small amount of money and want to make a pretty hefty per hour ISK amount 1 jump from a main trade hub at the cost of constant operation, it's not terrible. Of course prices may have changed since I did the math, but you should be able to squeeze out profit at least equal to the tier of taxes you skipped.

Actually P1->P3 might be better (less hassle, more hours of production queued up, lower skill requirements to get some production going).



I know what your are saying but you are mentioning inport pricing. If we could have inport pricing both ways that would be fine. I'm saying that export prices are out of line (they are twice as much). The markets will even out if they make changes, but if these tarrifs are not such a limiting factor you can watch the market, see when something opens up and act quickly. With massive taxes it limits your posiblities because the market it not always good on every commodity at the same time. With so many items using the same resources up the chain you can have a market opening on one resource but the tarrifs will still limit you because the overall market won't compensate.

Technically you could just eject everything into space and pick it up, but a command center only holds 500m3 so it would take forever (P4's are 100m3 each).
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-03-08 00:53:14 UTC
Prices are naturally higher on the weekends, and naturally lower in the middle of the week. So it is not surprising that your calculated numbers are lower than the current taxes.

Also, taxes are merely a part of the cost of doing business. If taxes are cutting into your profits, this may be because POSes are becoming more expensive to operate which lowers demand (read: isotope prices are rising, which is a complementary good to PI goods)
Raziel Walker
NPC Tax Evasion Corp
#25 - 2012-03-08 12:54:00 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
You should be ashamed of yourself. Lol


Sorry at work and no access to my excel sheet with details. I mentioned before I produce P2/3/4 fro P1 and almost everythign makes a profit.
I lied.

Producing P2 depends a lot on the price you pay for your P1 and at what price you sell your P2. I admit less as half shows as a profit at the moment but it depends a lot on the changing prices.

Producing P4 from P1 gives less profit as just selling the P3. And production slows because you can't place enough factories on a planet to produce an item like wetware mainframes in big volumes. (3 different P3 required where each P3 consists of 3 P2. Meaning you need 9 factories producing P2, 3 factories for producing P3 and one factory for producing P4. which results in only 1 P4 every 4 hours since you need 2 runs/hours of P3 production for one P4 and you need 2 P2 runs/hours to get the materials for one P3.


Let's say you can sell your wetware mainframe for 1.4m.
P1 import tax is 25*160*9=36000
P4 export tax is 135.000
Let's say the average P1 costs about 500 isk making the pile of P1 required for one wetware mainframe 720.000
Total build cost for one P4: 891.000.
Jita sell-build price = half a million profit.

Lets say you can sell your robotics for 55.000
P1 import tax = (25*80*4)/3=2666
P3 export tax = 7000
Let's say the average P1 costs about 400 isk making the pile of P1 required for one robotics cost 42.666
Total build cost for one P3: 45333
Jita sell-build price = almost 10.000 profit << yeah that 400 isk average P1 buy price is probably on the low side.

Lets say you can sell your mechanical parts for 9000
P1 import tax = (25*40*2)/5=400
P3 export tax = 900
Let's say the average P1 costs about 450 isk making the pile of P1 required for one robotics cost 7200
Total build cost for one P3: 8500
Jita sell-build price = almost 500 profit

I am even building a batch of robotics from P2 but those have a build cost of 56.000 isk so not worth it unless prices go up. Else they will just be used for fuel blocks.


Please point out the mistake in my calculation besides the buy/sell price that were just made up.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-03-08 20:35:28 UTC
Diamaht Nevain wrote:

I know what your are saying but you are mentioning inport pricing. If we could have inport pricing both ways that would be fine. I'm saying that export prices are out of line (they are twice as much). The markets will even out if they make changes, but if these tarrifs are not such a limiting factor you can watch the market, see when something opens up and act quickly. With massive taxes it limits your posiblities because the market it not always good on every commodity at the same time. With so many items using the same resources up the chain you can have a market opening on one resource but the tarrifs will still limit you because the overall market won't compensate.


I don't follow your logic. The taxes are baked into the market prices. If taxes were lowered, market prices would fall with them and you'd still not make much money for single stage assembly.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-03-08 20:40:12 UTC
Raziel Walker wrote:
[
Let's say you can sell your wetware mainframe for 1.4m.
P1 import tax is 25*160*9=36000
P4 export tax is 135.000
Let's say the average P1 costs about 500 isk making the pile of P1 required for one wetware mainframe 720.000
Total build cost for one P4: 891.000.
Jita sell-build price = half a million profit.

Lets say you can sell your robotics for 55.000
P1 import tax = (25*80*4)/3=2666
P3 export tax = 7000
Let's say the average P1 costs about 400 isk making the pile of P1 required for one robotics cost 42.666
Total build cost for one P3: 45333
Jita sell-build price = almost 10.000 profit << yeah that 400 isk average P1 buy price is probably on the low side.

Lets say you can sell your mechanical parts for 9000
P1 import tax = (25*40*2)/5=400
P3 export tax = 900
Let's say the average P1 costs about 450 isk making the pile of P1 required for one robotics cost 7200
Total build cost for one P3: 8500
Jita sell-build price = almost 500 profit

I am even building a batch of robotics from P2 but those have a build cost of 56.000 isk so not worth it unless prices go up. Else they will just be used for fuel blocks.

Please point out the mistake in my calculation besides the buy/sell price that were just made up.


Using a wetware mainframe is unrealistic. It uses far too much P1 to be viable on a single planet. Also your pricing seems low. Broadcast nodes are at least 1.5m each and require only 2 P1s for each P2, and 2 P2s for each P3s, etc.

I need to check my numbers when I get home.
Diamaht Nevain
EVE University
Ivy League
#28 - 2012-03-08 20:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Diamaht Nevain
Mavnas wrote:
Diamaht Nevain wrote:

I know what your are saying but you are mentioning inport pricing. If we could have inport pricing both ways that would be fine. I'm saying that export prices are out of line (they are twice as much). The markets will even out if they make changes, but if these tarrifs are not such a limiting factor you can watch the market, see when something opens up and act quickly. With massive taxes it limits your posiblities because the market it not always good on every commodity at the same time. With so many items using the same resources up the chain you can have a market opening on one resource but the tarrifs will still limit you because the overall market won't compensate.


I don't follow your logic. The taxes are baked into the market prices. If taxes were lowered, market prices would fall with them and you'd still not make much money for single stage assembly.


What I'm saying is that taxes are not baked into the pricing with this system. Someone at 10% tax rate cannot compete with someone at 3% tax rate. Playing and monitoring the market is not as important as customs office ownership. An industrious corp would simply find great planets, take over the customs, set it to 1% for corp members and rule the market.

You need the size and capability to defend your assets though, so a corp of some size is needed. Taxes are not baked in because we are not all paying the same rates. They've turned PI into a sort of mini sovereignty for low sec.

Edit: I guess I only added confusion with the way I worded earlier posts, so I apologies for that.
Moira Kali
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-03-09 11:52:35 UTC
Diamaht Nevain wrote:
[quote=Mavnas][quote=Diamaht Nevain]
You need the size and capability to defend your assets though, so a corp of some size is needed. Taxes are not baked in because we are not all paying the same rates. They've turned PI into a sort of mini sovereignty for low sec.


This is the real issue, for me. Low sec Pi is not something you can explore with an alt anylonger. Now you need a corp that can ensure the minimum safety for you to operate without the risk of havingg your production set-up turned into something unprofitable overnight just because of a change on taxes.

Though I understand that POCOS bring a new facet to the game, new forms of player interactions and territory disputes, I'm not sure if this mini sovereignty thing is something you wanna bring to Low Sec systems.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-03-09 16:09:45 UTC
Diamaht Nevain wrote:
[What I'm saying is that taxes are not baked into the pricing with this system. Someone at 10% tax rate cannot compete with someone at 3% tax rate. Playing and monitoring the market is not as important as customs office ownership. An industrious corp would simply find great planets, take over the customs, set it to 1% for corp members and rule the market.

You need the size and capability to defend your assets though, so a corp of some size is needed. Taxes are not baked in because we are not all paying the same rates. They've turned PI into a sort of mini sovereignty for low sec.

Edit: I guess I only added confusion with the way I worded earlier posts, so I apologies for that.


I suspect the cost of maintaining that 3% vs. 10% and shipping quantities back to high-sec makes up for it. Like I said, the more production steps you cut out of your chain the more you cut your taxes, but I see your point.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#31 - 2012-03-10 09:22:36 UTC
The problem with CCP constantly updating the numbers is that you'll *never* get ahead. Would you be asking them to update the numbers if all PI goods suddenly doubled in ISK value?

We're in a bit of a recession in PI goods because the expected "immediate" demand from the destruction of existing COs (and the immediate need to build thousands of POCOs) never happened. So all the speculation from December 2011 has to be given time to work itself back out of the market and for the gold-rush to be over.

At which point, prices will stabilize at some new level.

Long-term, CCP needs to add more and more blueprints which use PI ingredients as part of the manufacturing step. That iteration is something that they have not really done well.

(Obvious candidate would be the introduction of implant BPCs. Or changing some existing blueprints to start requiring trace amounts of PI materials. With the "faction BPC" blueprints probably being the easiest to change without upsetting the market.)
Heathkit
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-03-14 06:09:04 UTC
Salcon Cliff wrote:
Make it like property tax...when the basis goes down, the rates go up! Big smile

This was meant as a joke, but it's also a good point. From a nullsec perspective, the total taxes you pay are essentially rent for having access to a poco in defended space. If base prices go down, rates would likely go up to maintain the same income level.

That said, I do think CCP should update the base prices regularly to reflect market reality, but it should be on a defined, predictable schedule since it can have such a huge effect on alliance income. Twice a year seems reasonable.

Also, implant blueprints that use PI good is an excellent idea. Scrapyard Bob for CSM Chairman. I would love to see implant blueprints (or even BPCs) that take some quantity of p3s and a certain amount of corpses. It's high time that corpses became a valid industry input.

Also also, this is just crazy talk, but what if you could manufacture datacores from PI goods? That would allow completely independent T2 production in nullsec.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-03-14 11:04:51 UTC
Diamaht Nevain wrote:
What I'm saying is that taxes are not baked into the pricing with this system. Someone at 10% tax rate cannot compete with someone at 3% tax rate. Playing and monitoring the market is not as important as customs office ownership. An industrious corp would simply find great planets, take over the customs, set it to 1% for corp members and rule the market.

You need the size and capability to defend your assets though, so a corp of some size is needed. Taxes are not baked in because we are not all paying the same rates. They've turned PI into a sort of mini sovereignty for low sec.


And that, was exactly the point. Working as intended I'd say.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-03-14 17:18:49 UTC
LowSec. All problems solved, I'm making a ton of ISK without having to worry about taxes

I lied :o
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