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Nerf BCs Across the Board
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Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#101 - 2012-03-03 19:54:35 UTC
mecubed wrote:
Sprite Can wrote:
Imo Tier 3s are balanced well. It's the tier 2s and to a lesser extent tier 1s that are an issue. A Brutix outclasses a Thorax is every possible role imaginable, for example. (And arguably, a Hurricane outclasses both.)


A cane out classes pretty much everything BC and below, t2 cruiser hulls as well. In general minnie ships are superior to everyone elses.


It arguably does so, but only at very high character-skill and player-experience levels.

Guess what: By the time you reach the skill-points needed to get the most out of many Minmatar ships, you will generally have the kind of experience and knowledge to outclass most less-learned/experienced people, in most ships.

Solution: Nerf everything pre-emptively! Think of the ex-pat WoW-kids!

(That was sarcasm, just so we're clear.)

And you will have lost a few of those OMGOPDRAEK/CANE/WHATEVER!!!!11111oneone!!1 in the process, Minni ships are generally quite unforgiving of pilot-error.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#102 - 2012-03-03 20:01:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I didn't say anything about overpowered or underpowered - I said that there will always be a ship of the line. And no, simple use frequency doesn't denote over or underpoweredness.

-Liang


This. Oh my effing God, this. (/Me almost cries with joy)...

WHY the bloody Hell can't all you screeching, faeces-throwing, know-nothing howler monkeys get this through your ******* heads?

In the name of every God that was/is/ever will be, why???

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#103 - 2012-03-03 20:06:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Liang Nuren wrote:


[reason and rationality]
[...]
- I'm not sure why you think that HACs should be competing for the same roles that BCs do. That seems pretty dubious.
- Certain CSs so far outclass T1 BCs its not funny. Others... fall lackluster. One might argue its a problem with specific ships...
[...]

-Liang


(/Me smiles sardonically) Yeah, one just might, eh?

But remember where you are:

Reason, rationality, and objective analysis, there is little welcome or tolerance for these, here.

[/cynicism]

E: Fixed quoting-fail.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#104 - 2012-03-03 20:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Elistea wrote:
One thing that i must agree with is that T1 cruisers are completely useless/unused. (mby Xcept rupture).


This is simply not true. Going just by my own experience:

Thorax: Both traditional armour-brawler, and since the hybrid buff, shield/gank, especially as gang "heavy-tackle."

Vexor: Size-small guns and medium RR (armour) in a "junior AHAC" gang (this fleet-comp, properly led, has proven absolutely, loltastically lethal in my experience. Massive respect to our FC!)

(Yes, that character is one of my alts, manu/invent/indi in her case, the main was in the blinky-blinky toilet at the time, and our roams transit a lot of hisec.). Also "junior NanoTar."

Arbitrator--works beautifully solo/nano, and also has proven incredibly useful with tracking disruption as secondary EWAR support in the above-noted RR gang. The bonussed TD has saved our asses at least twice.

Omen: Needs a lot of fitting help, but an effective standard damage-dealer with T II guns/Scorch lenses, and fast enough.

Blackbird: Do I need to explain this one?

Caracal: No better cruiser for long-range secondary fire support and/or AML-based frigate murder. Also option of additional secondary EWAR, as in gang/fleet, she should be standing-off at range, aligned.

Elistea wrote:
They definitely need some kind of buff or refocus. (most of all T1 "logi" cruisers are joke)


This, especially the second bit, is all too true.

Elistea wrote:
Battlecruisers have basicaly same requirements and are better in every way making T1 cruisers obsolete.
Sad but true...


They may have broadly the same entry-requirements, but to get the most out of them requires a very long and broad skill training commitment--Battlecruisers to 5 alone--arguably mandatory for any halfway-serious PvP pilot--is like 25 days. That and the high fitting skills (try all-T II'ing a Drake, especially a HAM-Drake with a medium neut without them--it simply can't be done.) and the high support-skills to make the most of its capabilities. This, plus the chassis' inherent versatility will ensure that it will grow with a pilot for a long time to come. How can that be a bad thing? Especially if, as implied above, one wants to keep PvP relatively cheap?

E: Look down about halfway on the first page of that linked KB for the all-cruiser or mostly-cruiser + bait BC gangs--My Tenebrae was in her faithful Vexor for every single one of those actions, though--not least of all the fight against 3 Hurricanes, booster-Claymore, Astarte, and Scorpion in HagilurBlink

E2: Yes, it was a gang with a number of Vexors that totally ******* murdered three (3) ZOMGOPCANEZ!!!111!!!oneone!! With gang-boosting and Scorpion on their side. And smashing them into junk in due course:

Clearly, that makes our jauntily smiling space-mollusc outrageously OP by extension! NERF TEH VEXOR NAOW!!!111!!!!11oneoeneoneone!!

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Stay Feral
#105 - 2012-03-03 21:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
First off, I apologize for my terrible spelling and grammer.

I'm SICK AND TIRED of every time a ship stands out in PVP or PVE everyone who doesnt fly it go OMG-OP-SHIP-CCP-GET THE-NERF-BAT!!!!

Its getting old. Eventually EVER SHIP IN THE GAME will get nerfed to the point of SUCKING. Just rebalance it, dont just SLASH some aspect of it to ribbons without giving it some other bonus.

First its nerf the drake because people like it! Then its nerf the hurricane because its now the best BC with the drake dead! THEN its nerf the harby because its the only tier 2 battle cruiser who's main weapon is on the ship itself that doesn't completely suck!!!

It will never end.

Unless CCP NERFS THE BLOB

That the real problem here. The hurricane is good because of its DPS, ok. Well you can still beat it 1v1. Its when you get 50 hurricanes in the same fleet that the problem arises.

The drake itself? not unbeatable, take away its drones and its just another overtanked, welp DPS'd ships that can win only because it outlasts everything else. When you get 50 Drakes in the same fleet its almost impossible to beat them because of the massive DPS required.

Bring small scale gang warfare back to 0.0 wars. Bring and end to the blob. Give the nerfbat a rest!

Anyone care to share an idea about how to nerf the blob? Only idea i have is lower fleet size but that wouldnt work for 0.0 warfare (blobs).

Noisrevbus wrote:

Your classic HAM-buffer or roaming-HML Drake (assuming you need some utility mods, and not just use them to blob) have about an 80-90k buffer, whereas a similarily "buffered" Cane sports a 70-80k buffer.


Dude... no

A shield can with NO WARP JAMMING GEAR in the mids (1 invuln 2 LSE 1 mwd) gets 60k EHP all L5 skills
With a warp diruptor it dips to 49k EHP

Clearly never flown a shield cane.

Sprite Can wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
The OP is obviously a troll. Less than one week old char saying something stupid to cause a reaction. Nothing to see - please move along. Straight


I am not trolling. Ever hear of alts?


Yes, troll alts.

Sprite Can wrote:
Daracon Rage wrote:
Is it just me or does it make sense for a larger, more expensive ship to be able to defeat smaller, cheaper ships?


If your playing WoW, maybe. EVE is not a game of bigger=better.


Tell that to the tracking titan.
(Please, lets not make this a tracking titan thread I was proving a point)

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#106 - 2012-03-03 22:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
First off, I apologize for my terrible spelling and grammer.

I'm SICK AND TIRED of every time a ship stands out in PVP or PVE everyone who doesnt fly it go OMG-OP-SHIP-CCP-GET THE-NERF-BAT!!!!

Its getting old. Eventually EVER SHIP IN THE GAME will get nerfed to the point of SUCKING. Just rebalance it, dont just SLASH some aspect of it to ribbons without giving it some other bonus.

First its nerf the drake because people like it! Then its nerf the hurricane because its now the best BC with the drake dead! THEN its nerf the harby because its the only tier 2 battle cruiser who's main weapon is on the ship itself that doesn't completely suck!!!

It will never end.

Unless CCP NERFS THE BLOB

That the real problem here. The hurricane is good because of its DPS, ok. Well you can still beat it 1v1. Its when you get 50 hurricanes in the same fleet that the problem arises.

The drake itself? not unbeatable, take away its drones and its just another overtanked, welp DPS'd ships that can win only because it outlasts everything else. When you get 50 Drakes in the same fleet its almost impossible to beat them because of the massive DPS required.

Bring small scale gang warfare back to 0.0 wars. Bring and end to the blob. Give the nerfbat a rest!

Anyone care to share an idea about how to nerf the blob? Only idea i have is lower fleet size but that wouldnt work for 0.0 warfare (blobs).

Noisrevbus wrote:
[snip to appease the forum-monster]

Tell that to the tracking titan.
(Please, lets not make this a tracking titan thread I was proving a point)


This...THIS!!!

I'd "like" this post a thousand times if I could.

Liang's calm, coldly brutal reason is brilliant, and sorely needed, but reason balanced on the razor-edge of pure incisive fury is also needed, arguably more so, as I submit that CCP is too institutionally up-itself to ever bloody well hear anything else.

E: This is a huge reason--aside from just being me--why I post the way I do, in my various "personalities," by the way.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-03-03 22:50:06 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

pure incisive fury is also needed, arguably more so, as I submit that CCP is too institutionally up-itself to ever bloody well hear anything else.


Verily old chap. Now, if you would be so jovial as to acquiesce your tangibles into the person of myself for future usage I would be obliged to give a measure of thanks.

Ta ta!
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#108 - 2012-03-04 00:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
OfBalance wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

pure incisive fury is also needed, arguably more so, as I submit that CCP is too institutionally up-itself to ever bloody well hear anything else.


Verily old chap. Now, if you would be so jovial as to acquiesce your tangibles into the person of myself for future usage I would be obliged to give a measure of thanks.

Ta ta!


In irae, veritas. (hope I spelt that rightBlink)

Hey, I got an idea!

Let's play the "Penis-Game." I'll start.

/Me whispers:

(Penis)

E: Random scatter-gunning of big words make you look stupid if you blatantly haven't the faintest clue how/where to use them. Points for effort, but....Keep practising!

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#109 - 2012-03-04 00:37:53 UTC
I love how the ZOMG NERF EVERYTHING thread turned into a STFU. quit whining, and lets address real issues thread. Well done Cool

Solo Rifter since 2009
Sprite Can
#110 - 2012-03-04 00:39:41 UTC
Who the hell resurrected this thread? -.-

Refreshing Lemon-Lime~
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2012-03-04 00:48:42 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

A shield can with NO WARP JAMMING GEAR in the mids (1 invuln 2 LSE 1 mwd) gets 60k EHP all L5 skills
With a warp diruptor it dips to 49k EHP

Clearly never flown a shield cane.


Clearly never flown with links.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#112 - 2012-03-04 01:17:10 UTC
Ahrieman wrote:
I love how the ZOMG NERF EVERYTHING thread turned into a STFU. quit whining, and lets address real issues thread. Well done Cool


In only one post, too!

That's why that post is so full of win, though.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-03-04 09:01:30 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Anyone care to share an idea about how to nerf the blob?


Buff Bombers to be able to fit four bomb launchers, with enough cargo bay to carry one reload in the bay. Allow the launchers to be stacked, and create a damage mod that increases size and damage of bombs that can be fit in the lows. Also allow it to fit four siege launchers as an alternative to the bomb launchers.

FE4R teh B0M3R!!!

-DT
Annie Anomie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-03-04 10:47:02 UTC
Buff cruisers.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#115 - 2012-03-04 11:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Annie Anomie wrote:
Buff cruisers.



^^This^^

Signature-radius reduction plus significant base-speed boost, possibly at least one extra slot on the tier 3 war-cruisers, and for Gods' sake, useful increase to FITTING-CAPACITY!!!

And that which never needed nerfing in the first place, needs not be nerfed. Why? because that which needed fixing was instead brought up to he current standard from being a legacy relic.

Amazing how that works, eh: Iteration, I think is what they call it?

E: Clarity.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Stay Feral
#116 - 2012-03-05 01:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Mfume Apocal wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

A shield can with NO WARP JAMMING GEAR in the mids (1 invuln 2 LSE 1 mwd) gets 60k EHP all L5 skills
With a warp diruptor it dips to 49k EHP

Clearly never flown a shield cane.


Clearly never flown with links.


I was going with no links, so a solo hurricane vs. a solo drake.

Since that really is the problem with the blob, solo PVP is dead :(
UNLESS of course your flying a 5b vindy where you can tank 2k+ and still do a lot of DPS.


Death Toll007 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Anyone care to share an idea about how to nerf the blob?


Buff Bombers to be able to fit four bomb launchers, with enough cargo bay to carry one reload in the bay. Allow the launchers to be stacked, and create a damage mod that increases size and damage of bombs that can be fit in the lows. Also allow it to fit four siege launchers as an alternative to the bomb launchers.

FE4R teh B0M3R!!!

-DT




DEATH TO BLOBS Twisted
Even if you couldn't group them if they are in your f1-f4 hot keys then you could launch them more or less simultaneously.

I'm trying to picture bomber blobs gatecamping, and I just cant see it working, they would probably bomb each other so this is best idea I've heard so far.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Randomgenerated Alt
Doomheim
#117 - 2012-03-07 21:09:19 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:
Alara, normally you have reasonable posts but that one just... bleh. Not even mad, just bad taste in my mouth.



What you mean the Insurance thing?

If so I am just not a fan of the mechanic. When I was a newbe it was helpful but now that I know I won't loose a Ship in PvE unless I am being dumb (Happens, my fault) and only fly what I can afford to loose in PvP it just seems a little to hand holding.

Some people like the Safty Net and I am not frothing at the mouth yelling HTFU but I just don't like it. Ugh
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:

You can, in my opinion, favorably compare T2 Battlecruisers to the Main Battle Tanks of Today. They're fast, can take hits and keep going, and have a gun that has the ability to kill or destroy another modern Main Battle Tank. They also have the ability to mow down a lot of smaller opponents and lighter armored vehicles with near impunity.

They are the MBT of EVE but I don't think they should be.

I would prefer Cruisers had the mix of DPS, Tank and Speed to make them the MBT's of EVE while Battlecruisers are just Heavier, Slower better Tanked versions and Tier 3's as Inaccurate but almost as fast Hammers like Tank Destroyers with the big forward facing oversized guns.

I think I would prefer PvP moved to the middle while Battlecruisers should Shine in area's of less mobility like Blockades and Bigger Fleets. T1 Cruisers to me should be more viable as a Skirmish option then the Cane.



Do you drive a car? How about fly a plane, ride a motorcycle, drive or sail a boat? Do you have life insurance?
Soldiers go to war and have insurance.. Its there to compensate you for a loss..

If you crash your car 2morrow? Do you have enough to buy a new one outright? Do soldiers who die in combat, do you think their families should suffer and starve because the money maker of the family dies?

How about your family, if you got injured, and cant work, do you think your family should suffer because of it...

Its there to help cover when bad things happen.. Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean everyone else shouldnt have it.

If your not paying for their insurance then you have no right to say they shouldnt have it when they foot the bill...
Randomgenerated Alt
Doomheim
#118 - 2012-03-07 21:12:53 UTC
As for the nerf BC's, they are fine.. Drake was fine as well. Minnie pilots were just butthurt because the cane actually had a hard time fighting it.

That and they arent happy till they have the best ship of every ship class instead of settling with the far majority of the best ships per class in game...

God forbid if another race besides minmatar can actually defeat their ships.
Alara IonStorm
#119 - 2012-03-07 22:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Randomgenerated Alt wrote:

Do you drive a car? How about fly a plane, ride a motorcycle, drive or sail a boat? Do you have life insurance?
Soldiers go to war and have insurance.. Its there to compensate you for a loss..

If you crash your car 2morrow? Do you have enough to buy a new one outright? Do soldiers who die in combat, do you think their families should suffer and starve because the money maker of the family dies?

How about your family, if you got injured, and cant work, do you think your family should suffer because of it...

Its there to help cover when bad things happen.. Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean everyone else shouldnt have it.

If your not paying for their insurance then you have no right to say they shouldnt have it when they foot the bill...

First off the real life comparisons are terrible. If this was real life then Insurance premiums would be through the roof and half of all pilots would simply be refused coverage. The rest who pay a reasonable price would loose more on insurance. Realistically you would have 2 maybe 3 ship wrecks covered before they flat out refuse your service for being a bad bet.

So real life examples of any kind are a pathetic excuse.

Second Insurance hurts the game and drives up ship prices for everyone. It injects a ton more ISK then it takes away which drives up Ship Prices for everyone. So I have every right to disprove of this game mechanic.

Past the new player stage Insurance should shut down simple as that and cut off the ISK Faucet. Insurance payouts in Feb: 3,366,455,121,035 ISK. Paid for insurance: 1,618,888,782,680 ISK. Stop the free ISK Hand Holding that is helping downing the EVE Economy and hurting new players by forcing up prices.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2012-03-08 04:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Voith
Ahrieman wrote:
I don't have any fancy charts or graphs, but I think the tier 2 BC's are all fine. Ok, so I would like the drake to take a small nerf, but if my only options are to leave tier 2's the way they are or to nerf drakes and canes (prob into the ground cus that's what happens when people whine about stuff being OP when it's working) buff the harbinger (WTF) and buff the myrm (just don't try to fight on a gate with GCC cus your drones die), I say to leave them be.

So tier 2 BC's are all but fine imho.

Tier 1 BC's are what I expect out of them: they are cheaper than tier 2's and fill roles nicely without stepping on toes of tier 2 BC's.

The real problem isn't BC's as much as it is cruisers. I thought obvious need for cruiser rebalancing was obvious Roll

The only "problem" with Tier2 BCs is that they continue CCP bias against Amarr and Gallente by refusing to acknowledge that their guns are harder to fit, use cap and their tanks take cap during the design phase.

Realistically a Hurricane should have ~30% less grid, 15% less CPU and 40% less Cap since it uses projectiles. But most Minmatar ships should be similar adjusted if CCP is serious about balance.

But since they aren't I'm laughing all the way to the Winmatar bank.