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Planning ahead: Best (very) small gang capital ship complement for C5 ops?

Author
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#1 - 2012-03-06 21:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Substantia Nigra
I am currently setting up home in my first residential C5 (no system effects), have never flown any capital-ships, and was wanting to work them into my C5 efforts sometime in the near future. I have alts able to fly minmatar, caldari, and gallente carriers and dreads .... with a scattering of support and DPS skills for those ship types (not capital hybrid weapons tho).

I doubt that we are going to get to the third or fourth cap-ship escalation ... simple lack of numbers ... but I'd like to try for the first and second escalation. What two cap ships would I be best to start with?

My non-experienced thinking is Minnie carrier first (reps useful in sites as well as for POS attacks etc), and then perhaps the caldari dread (CO clearing and long range sleeper BS hitting) next. Is that an entirely stoopid approach? Would a different two capitals be better?
If I did get all bolshie and step up to four caps which should they be?

The non-cap support will be shield tanking missile / drone throwers (tengu / 'snakes). So far our c5 site clearing has been solo tengu but soon it will be two-ship. Once I'm comfortable with working the sites without caps, and once I've build the first cap, I'll try one-subcap plus one cap, and then probably work towards one-subcap and two-caps. So, yes, I **am** talking small gangs and so obviously I need to approach the sites very differently to all you big-group folk. I am happy with that and accept that I may be able to make way better isk soloing C3s ... which is what I have just packed-up and left.

We build our own ships so price and availability etc is not really a stumbling block, and hauling into w-space is gonna be much the same whatever I choose.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2 - 2012-03-06 21:48:22 UTC
You're not going with armor subcaps? Sad
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#3 - 2012-03-06 22:20:31 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
You're not going with armor subcaps? Sad


I wasn't planning to. I'm well skilled and well setup for shield tanking sleepers and, given my solo tengu efforts in there, I have seen no need to swap to armor tankers. I have reasonable armor skills but unless there's a strong need I don't really want to move away from my shield-tanking sleeper shooters.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-03-07 02:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Quote:
and then perhaps the caldari dread (CO clearing and long range sleeper BS hitting) next


i nearly fell off my chair at this.
phoenix doesnt hit BSs. like at all.

if youre only using capitals and a web ship, you need an archon and a rev/moros.
if youre using subcaps for 1st wave, any carrier will work with archon still being by far the best.

all of your dreads should be moros or rev with moros being better.
(nag is good for anti pvp and pos bashing, phoenix is totally useless.)

i know this probably isnt what you want to hear given your stated cap capabilities but train for an archon asap.
it's only 35-40odd days for any per/wil specced carrier pilot and is very much worth it.
if youre serious about small number c5 running, youre gonna want a moros/rev pilot too since by far the best way to run the sites with low numbers is archon, moros/rev and a loki.
note that you'll need a boosting toon at the pos too.

EDIT:
dont build caps in a c5.
LS entrys are very common, just jump them in.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#5 - 2012-03-07 02:19:41 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

i nearly fell off my chair at this.
phoenix doesnt hit BSs. like at all.


LOL. Now I **did** say I had no cap experience etc :-)

Given that I kite them I figured the sleeper BSs would have virtually no traversal and that honking great lumbering missiles would hit home. Hmmpphhh, thanks for disabusing me of that thought.


Jack Miton wrote:

i know this probably isnt what you want to hear given your stated cap capabilities but train for an archon asap.


That's fine. I very nearly included a comment in my OP, that cross training for Amarr caps is only a month or two ... no great shakes really.

Jack Miton wrote:

note that you'll need a boosting toon at the pos too.


A already use a 'perfect' fleet booster sitting in the POS.

Jack Miton wrote:

dont build caps in a c5.
LS entrys are very common, just jump them in.


Thanks. I'll have to look at that option also ... especially that I have never (yet) cyno jumped anything.

Are you suggesting I build them in a lowsec / nullsec station somewhere, perhaps jump freighting the components in, and then jump them to the connecting lowsec / nullsec system when I get an incoming K162?

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-03-07 03:20:17 UTC
If you have 4 characters (including the fleet booster), you can get a full capital escalation (even with just 2 capships). I'll go into more detail shortly. Also, you aren't going to be kiting with capital ships... they can't move when seiged/triaged. First though, the ships:

For all of the below, I'm making all statements assuming a max skilled mindlinked tengu or legion boosting offgrid (cause you stated that you have one). Note that the only mod that affects capital local reps is the resist bonus one, the rep amount/time and cap use links do not affect the local, but do affect RR. Fits are using t2 links.

Dreadnought:
You want either a moros or a revelation (moros does more dps, rev doesn't have to worry about ammo). Technically a naglfar can work, but its actual performance is pretty abysmal. You need to hit at 37km (the orbit range of escalation battleships). If there is any way possible to manage it, you want to have a t2 seige mod (even if only for the ability to lock 3 targets... 2 just isn't enough) and you are going to want a scan resolution scripted sensor booster, otherwise your lock time for a sleeper battleship is 50s...

As for actual dreadnoughts, with effective C5 fits. Tank is a DCU, 2 hardeners and a capital rep for all of them (armor or shield, either can work). No faction equipment on any unless otherwise noted, and capital mods are all meta 0. In order of utility:

Moros with 2 magstabs, t2 seige mod, and 2 tracking computers:
optimal is 24+31 w/ antimatter
9865dps with max skills
3512dps sustained tank, 6836 reinforced
To hit a target, target needs to be triple webbed - painters also help
7min cap with everything running

Revelation with 2 heatsinks, t2 seige mod, and 2 tracking computers:
optimal is 30+20 w/ multifreqency
7174dps with max skills
tank is same as the moros, but with max skills it has 9 min of cap instead of 7 min
again, to hit a target, target needs to be triple webbed, and painters help

Naglfar with 2 gyro's, t2 seige mod and 2 tracking computers:
optimal is 20+59km with autocannons
5418dps w/ max skills
9003dps tank with shield, armor is same as rev/moros (shield has only about 3 min of cap though, armor has 15min)
to hit a target, target nees to be triple webbed, and painters help

Pheonix I'm going to state why the capital missiles suck so hard and can't be used.
A pheonix with 4 BCU's would have 8705dps using torps. However, tops on a battleship target do the following:
Using a bhaalghorn as an example (cause I had it up), signature is 400m, speed is 111m/s, and a webbing rapier as an example (bonus to web range and painter strength)
With 0 webs, 0 painters, the pheonix does 188dps (no, I didn't loose a 0 somewhere)
with 1 web, 0 painters, it does 470dps
with 2 web, 0 painters it does 981dps
with 3 web, 0 painters it does 1492dps
with 0 web, 1 painters it does 285dps
with 1 web, 1 painters it does 712dps
with 2 web, 1 painters it does 1487dps
with 3 web, 1 painters it does 2260dps
with 0 web, 2 painters it does 413dps
with 1 web, 2 painters it does 1031dps
with 2 web, 2 painters it does 2152dps
with 3 web, 2 painters it does 3272dps
with 0 web, 3 painters it does 534dps
with 2 web, 3 painters it does 1334dps
with 2 web, 3 painters it does 2785dps
with 3 web, 3 painters it does 4233dps

I would like to note here that the moros with 3 webs and 3 painters is doing 8176dps, and with 3 webs and 0 painters is still doing 7665dps against something orbiting it. The cruise missile version of the pheonix has the same issues as the torp version, but its base dps is only 5045dps (which maxes at 3275dps with 3 webs and 3 painters). The explosion velocity of citadel torps is 17.4m/s, and the explosion radius is 1750. Torps have an explosion velocity of 12, and an explosion radius of 2000.

Now, on to carriers:

For carriers, the archon is the best, because it gets a tanking bonus, and can remote armor rep and remote cap transfer at range. It also has the best cap of any of the carriers. Following that would probably be the naglfar, because it gets a RR amount bonus, but it is significantly more vulnerable to neuting. After that the chimera and thanatos are pretty even in my book, because the chimera has cap and fitting issues, while the thanatos doesn't get a bonus to cap transfer range (but has significantly better cap than chimera fits I've been able to come up with). When triaged, I would have 2 RR and 1 cap transfer - the cap transfer is turned on when the web ship needs it and with a fleet booster 1 triage capital rep is enough to keep most ships alive under a double escalation. Having 2 allows you to catch people though, and you are going to want enough cap to permarun either 2 RR, or 1 RR and 1 Remote cap. You will also want to be able to last for a few minutes with everything running - this will help when you are being neuted, but they are shooting another target which you have to keep alive. T2 triage mods are nice, even if only for the stront usage reduction (triage 5 with a t2 triage mod uses half the stront of a triage 4 t1 triage mod). 1 Capital local rep is enough to keep you alive with your fleet booster though, which really helps out your cap situation.

Lastly, for fleet composition:
you need 1 triage carrier
1 dps dreadnought
1 webber (huggin/rapier/loki/bhaalghorn)

warp in triage carrier 1st, then webber, then dreadnought. Dps site down. If you want to get full escalation, warp out, and have the dread and carrier pilots switch - when you warp back in you will get the second escalation, allowing you to do full escalation with only 3 pilots in site. Don't kill the last ship in the site - this will allow you to farm it for several days.

-Arazel
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-03-07 03:36:24 UTC
Now the last part that didn't fit into my previous post - getting capital ships in. Here you have 2 options - build them inside, or buy/have them built outside and bring them in when you get an opening.

For the first option, building them inside. First, you would need the skills to do so. Second, you need a component assembly array (or several) and a X-Large ship assembly array. Note, if you plan on doing any mining, I would have an X-Large ship assembly array anyways because it gives you 16mil m3 of storage space, which is always nice. The first problem would be getting the minerals in - the total mineral volume for a carrier is about 1.1mil m3 (dreads have about double that mineral requirement). Or, you can haul in the pre-built components, but that is about 4mil m3 for a carrier (again, dreads are about double that). The last option is you can use compression and haul in 425mm railguns (and t1 HIC bubbles for the nocxium requirements), and reprocess them inside the WH. The upside to this is that a 425mm railgun has a compression ratio of about 11:1 - this means that the 1.1mil m3 of minerals turns into about 100k m3 of railguns. Of course, the downside is that you max out your reprocess amount at 75%, which means that you have to add 1/3 as many railguns, and it drastically increases the price. But you could still fit it all into 1-2 orca trips for a carrier. And even after you do all of this, its still going to take about 2 weeks to build your capital ship. Luckily, an X-Large ship assembly array can build up to 3 at a time.

Of course, you can also build them in regular space, and then jump them in - the problem with this is that it costs fuel to jump, and your entrances may be dozens of jumps away from where your pre-built capital ship is. This leads to generally just sitting on the isk to buy one, and when you get an entrance, look and see what is nearby, then go purchase somewhat locally (1-2 capital jumps away) and bring it in that way. This is in general the easier and cheaper method of doing things.

There are upsides and downsides to both methods. With the first option, you can generally guarantee that you can get a few orca's in occasionally to just about any WH (unless you have a C1 static, in which case I hope you like iteron's). The downside is of course the cost, the amount of hauling, and the time. With the second option though you are waiting until you have an entrance, then hoping there is something nearby (not always a safe assumption if your entrance happens to be to nullsec and in the middle of enemy territory where they all hate you, or just in the middle of nullsec with a sucky market). And you can easily go weeks without a good entrance - I once ended up going a month without any good entrances that I could get a carrier in through, and this is only made worse if you are working solo. If you have a C5 or C6 static though, this becomes alot easier because once you get your first capship in, you can use it to cycle your static and keep doing that till you get a good lowsec/nullsec entrance, and then bring a capship in first through the adjacent hole, then into your WH.

So which method you use is up to you, just keep your eye on the prize and don't mess up too much Lol

-Arazel
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-03-07 03:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Arazel, I have no idea where youre getting your DPS figures from for moros and revelation but they are way out.
Firstly, your dreads should have at least 3 damage mods and more than 2 TCs.

DPS figures off the PVE fit dreads (3 faction damage mods, before implants) we use are as follows:

Rev:
10320 dps @ 34+20 (Faction MF)

Moros:
10599 dps @ 36+24 (T1 Uranium), 11659 with faction
12719 dps @ 24+24 (T1 Antimatter), 13990 with faction

EDIT:
I missed that youre using stock guns and T2 mods...
Stop being a cheap arse.
Running 1 site can pay for full pimp on guns, EANMs and damage mods for a dread.
Rep should also be meta.

Regarding getting the caps in, just buy them in LS and jump them in.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-03-07 03:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arazel Chainfire
Jack Miton wrote:
Arazel, I have no idea where youre getting your DPS figures from for moros and revelation but they are way out.
Firstly, your dreads should have at least 3 damage mods and more than 2 TCs.

DPS figures off the PVE fit dreads (3 faction damage mods, before implants) we use are as follows:

Rev:
10320 dps @ 34+20 (Faction MF)

Moros:
10599 dps @ 36+24 (T1 Uranium), 11659 with faction
12719 dps @ 24+24 (T1 Antimatter), 13990 with faction

EDIT:
I missed that youre using stock guns and T2 mods...
Stop being a cheap arse.
Running 1 site can pay for full pimp on guns, EANMs and damage mods for a dread.
Rep should also be meta.

Regarding getting the caps in, just buy them in LS and jump them in.


Capital ship fits were using a beginners "im just getting used to capital ships" fits with good cap and decent tank, using pure t1/t2 with nothing too fancy (after all, people can always upgrade, but that depends upon their budget, and when you are taking a ship out for the very first time its better not to have too much bling on it). I will agree that once you get to know how to use them and how long they can last in a site that you should upgrade them and faction/meta 2 cap mod them out, and you will get a lot more mileage out of them. But this also depends upon your skills - you are going to be alot more cautious with low skills then once you all lvl 5 (or at least all lvl 4) everything on them.

So my fits (numbers posted previously):
[Revelation, C5]
Capital Armor Repairer I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II

Siege Module II
Dual Giga Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency XL
Dual Giga Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency XL
Dual Giga Pulse Laser I, Multifrequency XL

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

[Moros, C6 Moros]
Capital Armor Repairer I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

Siege Module II
Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge XL
Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge XL
Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I, Antimatter Charge XL

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

What I would use once I had been playing for a while and could afford it:
[Revelation, C5]
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Capacitor Power Relay II

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II

Siege Module II
Dual Modal Giga Pulse Laser I, Blood Multifrequency XL
Dual Modal Giga Pulse Laser I, Blood Multifrequency XL
Dual Modal Giga Pulse Laser I, Blood Multifrequency XL

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

[Moros, C6 Moros]
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

Siege Module II
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

-Arazel

Edit: where are you getting 13990 on the moros w/ faction antimatter? I'm getting 14190 on it with no implants? Is your 3rd damage mod t2?
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-03-07 04:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
yeah not sure about the moros dps, seemed low to me too but that's what my EFT told me *shrugs*

you don't need any cap mods on the dreads tbh.
just make sure you have them in cargo so you can fit them off the carrier if you need to.
i use T2 mem cell rigs on my rev too, works better IMO.

faction those EANMs asap bro.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-03-07 14:18:46 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
yeah not sure about the moros dps, seemed low to me too but that's what my EFT told me *shrugs*

you don't need any cap mods on the dreads tbh.
just make sure you have them in cargo so you can fit them off the carrier if you need to.
i use T2 mem cell rigs on my rev too, works better IMO.

faction those EANMs asap bro.


So in other words you're saying go for this?

[Moros, Shield ****]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Siege Module II

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

slot 9 'Gunslinger' CX-2.5 (6% boost to all turret damage)

-Arazel
Caldari Citizen20090217
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-03-07 14:40:48 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:

... The last option is you can use compression and haul in 425mm railguns (and t1 HIC bubbles for the nocxium requirements), and reprocess them inside the WH...
-Arazel


I thought that you couldn't reprocess modules at a POS. i may be wrong tho, and would appreciate more info :)
Farang Lo
Advancement of Aviation and Aviators
#13 - 2012-03-07 17:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Farang Lo
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
yeah not sure about the moros dps, seemed low to me too but that's what my EFT told me *shrugs*

you don't need any cap mods on the dreads tbh.
just make sure you have them in cargo so you can fit them off the carrier if you need to.
i use T2 mem cell rigs on my rev too, works better IMO.

faction those EANMs asap bro.


So in other words you're saying go for this?

-Arazel

I'm pretty sure he means this

[Moros, Moros fit]

Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I
Siege Module II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Capital Armor Repairer I
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-03-07 21:26:48 UTC
Yeah you do need the T2 cap rigs. either work.
i wouldnt go shield cos it's way worse on cap and you then need to run shield and armour boosts.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout