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Did CCP forget about battleships.....

Author
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-03-03 23:53:42 UTC
Gibbo3771 wrote:
...when they released the Tier 3 battlecruisers.

Back when you had something shiny tackled, "I HAVE A CHIMERA TACKLED, NEED DPS" everyone hopping in there Machariels, Vindicators and gank bs alike.

When CCP released these Tier 3's did they even think about the impact it would have any battleship usage. Yes battleships are still used in big gangs like baddons and arty maels.

Now there is even less reason to fly battleships in smaller gangs for a few reasons, why would you fly slow and armor tanked bs with guardians...when you can roam in Tier 3's with scimis.

Tier 3's are faster
They hit harder FOR SOME REASON
The talos tracks like a zealot WTF?

Those are the reasons to not fly a bs gang when if you can fly a bs with t2 guns, you can fly a Tier 3 with t2 guns.

So CCP seems to have never thought of Tier 3's just replacing battleships in the high DPS role.

They might not have the tank of a bs but why do you need 150k ehp when you are as mobile as any nano hac.

I really think the Tier 3's need another quick look at

Anyone who says otherwise is probably using them to a high degree or are just bitter.

I usually Adapt or Die but this just bugs me a little

I only quoted this because I like your avatar.
Pulgy
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-03-04 03:27:31 UTC
Ti3s are paper thin.
That is all.
No range? No problem!   Join the Church of the Holy Blaster™ . A Hybrid religion.
Adacia Calla
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-03-04 03:27:40 UTC
I bought a Tornado the other day to see what it flew like. It easily out runs frigs/dessies/cruisers with a couple expensive exceptions like Vagabonds, and Cynabals, which doesn't matter because you can pop them at 60km when they have a 1000m sig.

I kinda agree, despite that they're glass cannons, they really should be looked at :/

Test signature....forum not applying settings :(

Yoma Karima
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-03-04 03:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Yoma Karima
Ironically ter3's are the only BCs in the game made the traditional way. Don't believe me look up WW1 Battle Cruisers British Royal Navy. they do their job and they do it well:p

Those who wish to end War wish to end what it means to be human. Those who advocate War do not know its power. Yet Those who learn from War will be remembered for all time.

OfBalance
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-03-04 03:34:00 UTC
Yoma Karima wrote:
Ironically ter3's are the only BCs in the game made the traditional way. Don't believe me look up WW1 Battle Cruisers British Royal Navy. they do their job and they do it well:p


And that's highly important in this game of spaceships with submarine physics.
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#26 - 2012-03-04 03:52:24 UTC
Great. Now I've seen EVE ships and gameplay described in terms of tanks and WW1 naval ships. You guys do realize that this isn't supposed to model anything real, right?

The important part is that the game is balance, not that such and such ship works like a "Typhoon class submarine" while another serves as a "main battle tank." This is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!

Solo Rifter since 2009

OfBalance
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-03-04 04:02:00 UTC
Ahrieman wrote:
Great. Now I've seen EVE ships and gameplay described in terms of tanks and WW1 naval ships. You guys do realize that this isn't supposed to model anything real, right?

The important part is that the game is balance, not that such and such ship works like a "Typhoon class submarine" while another serves as a "main battle tank." This is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!


The typhoon looks more like a submarine than most of our spaceships, I think you're on to something there.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#28 - 2012-03-04 04:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
I see the over powered aspect to Tier 3 bc's when comparing to battleships.

Why? because you are comparing them to eachother instead of targets.

If you are v.s. a gang of cruisers you want that BS! I'll take that domi at the same price as a tornado anyday in that situation.

If targets are other bc's and battleships then tier 3 bc's can out run them and put on the hurt.
What these do is help weaker pilots in groups hold off higher sp pilots who are in small groups much better then they could before. That's pretty much what they do. A bit of extra dps as snipers. Noob corps just got sharper teeth!
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
#29 - 2012-03-04 04:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Magnum
They do tier 3 BS damage at tier 1 BS price, with standard BC defenses or less. They're ships that can't decide if they're a BS or a HAC, but which overshadow both in certain areas (damage vs. cost, mainly.)

Personally, I'm loath to spend 100 mil on a glass cannon (which is what they end up costing with t2 fittings more or less.) IMO there are a couple of flaws with the tier 3 BCs:
1. there is very little reason to choose a glass cannon HAC over one in gang combat, making HACs less relevant
2. Talos tracking bonus, meaning the effective DPS can easily exceed that of the gankiest standard battleships. Other tier 3 BCs also have bonuses that their racial ganky counterparts lack (cap use and falloff, for instance.)

They're a stark departure from CCP's trend of making new ships more and more specialized, and I'm not sure I like it. But on the other hand I don't have extremely strong feelings about it either. I'm more annoyed by the surging popularity of the alpha welpfleet, to which the Tornado is a major contributor. Even if we had a more dynamic combat system that rewarded individual tactics in the gang environment, engagements where every primary dies on the first volley get silly after awhile.

                      "LIVE FAST DIE." - traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]

Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#30 - 2012-03-04 04:25:03 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
Ahrieman wrote:
Great. Now I've seen EVE ships and gameplay described in terms of tanks and WW1 naval ships. You guys do realize that this isn't supposed to model anything real, right?

The important part is that the game is balance, not that such and such ship works like a "Typhoon class submarine" while another serves as a "main battle tank." This is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!


The typhoon looks more like a submarine than most of our spaceships, I think you're on to something there.


This thread is now about submarines. SUBMARINES OR GTFO!

MOAR SUBMARINES!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTohYRUt_2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7G0Ae4gQNQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrU0bYq7KPQ&feature=related

Solo Rifter since 2009

Yoma Karima
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-03-04 13:24:13 UTC
OfBalance wrote:
Yoma Karima wrote:
Ironically ter3's are the only BCs in the game made the traditional way. Don't believe me look up WW1 Battle Cruisers British Royal Navy. they do their job and they do it well:p


And that's highly important in this game of spaceships with submarine physics.


And class this is why we don't post fun facts in eve forums as they are insta-trollbait.

Those who wish to end War wish to end what it means to be human. Those who advocate War do not know its power. Yet Those who learn from War will be remembered for all time.

Veronica Kerrigan
Surgically Constructed L Feminist
#32 - 2012-03-04 15:14:20 UTC
Gibbo3771 wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
"I beg to differ, talos gets much more range than a mega and go do 800dps out to 45km with just about same tracking as a scorch zealot."

you're stupid... no bs sized weapon has as good tracking as a crusier sized weapon due to the fact of sig resolution...

try again...


lol eh yeah your stupid...for a start "SIGNATURE RESOLUTION" is not even a thing in the game. Its Signature Radius and a guns signature radius has NOTHING to do with it stracking.

Try again, dipshit


You might want to look at game mechanics before insulting someone. There are to components of the tracking formula, compared to two stats of the opposing ship. The first is tracking speed versus angular velocity. This directly affects hit quality. The second calculation is SIGNATURE RESOLUTION versus signature radius. it is Signature radius divided by signature resolution, and then that multiplied with the tracking speed. This means that a ship with sig radius 40 compared to a neutron blaster's 400 sig res will be tracked at 10% the normal rate, effectively making the ship have an angular velocity 10x faster.

- Vern
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#33 - 2012-03-04 16:22:43 UTC
PvP is all about mobility and positioning, EHP is largely irrelevant. That held true before the introduction of the Tier3 BCs with Crucible so I'm really not sure why people are complaining now.

That said, Nano-Mega is fun to fly.
Isaiah Harms
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-03-05 23:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaiah Harms
Pulgy wrote:
Ti3s are paper thin.
That is all.


Doesn't matter. If it can't be caught it can't be killed.

But well done Dear CCP. The new Tier 3 battlercruisers are a spectacular success! There now exists a class of warship that can outrun and outgun any cruiser, battlecruiser, or battleship on the field. And due to the skill requirements of T2 large guns it further relegates those "other" ships to the ranks of the unskilled noobs.

So way to go! At last a ship with no counter! Sure if you land on it with a gang it's dead, but if you don't land on it everyone else is dead.

I realize CCP thought the dismal tank (in comparison to battleships) would make it "balanced", yet coupled with it's superior firepower and amazing speed it'll own any challenger.

So guess what? We can all get rid of those other pesky battlecruiser hulls because CCP finally has the solution to killing Drakes, and anything else out there.

*** And don't talk to me about gang warfare. You'll really hate what a gang of Tier 3's can do with logistic support ***
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-03-05 23:48:01 UTC
While a T3 battlecruiser really is a nice damage platform it can't hold anything in place. If you don't like the way the fight is going, just warp off.

They do need support to keep things in place or a meatshield keeping the enemy on the field whereas battleships and drakes can stand on their own.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-03-06 14:34:18 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
While a T3 battlecruiser really is a nice damage platform it can't hold anything in place. If you don't like the way the fight is going, just warp off.

They do need support to keep things in place or a meatshield keeping the enemy on the field whereas battleships and drakes can stand on their own.


Paper thin insta Canes, paper thin insta Tornados, paper thin insta Nagas and Oracles are a nightmare just because they can target you before you can target back, **** your ship before you can hit warp button while moving faster than any other BC and some cruisers in the game.
What can you do? -not much

Bm strategic points, drop bubbles, gate camp them, bomb them (3 good bomb pilots are enough to completely **** a full fleet of those), warp in the middle of those and shread them while spamming in local "I was there", snipe them with paper thin battleships (2xtank than those BC's and at least 15% more dps provided you do a good fit)

There are a few tools to counter but if you get caught, and I often do, then it's a part of the game and you must man up shut your mouth and work on to get payback.
When you **** a full fleet of those with just a couple of bombers, they will just stop moving in large groups. loot/profit Lol

Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
#37 - 2012-03-06 17:39:39 UTC
HE MEANS TO DEFECT!! Then BLAM-O... Darth Vader destroys the Air to Water sub destroyer... and pulls the Jedi Mind trick on a crewman, along with anyone else in the room... or on the radio.... or in that helicopter... or the guy who loaded the torpedo from the ship to the helicopter... and stuff...


Subs are cool. So are russians. ... and torpedos.. and battleships..

Read more of my ramblings on my blog www.invadingyourhole.blogspot.com

Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
#38 - 2012-03-06 18:21:19 UTC
Gibbo3771 wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
"I beg to differ, talos gets much more range than a mega and go do 800dps out to 45km with just about same tracking as a scorch zealot."

you're stupid... no bs sized weapon has as good tracking as a crusier sized weapon due to the fact of sig resolution...

try again...


lol eh yeah your stupid...for a start "SIGNATURE RESOLUTION" is not even a thing in the game. Its Signature Radius and a guns signature radius has NOTHING to do with it stracking.

Try again, dipshit


7/10

I almost got baited into trying to explain why you're post is ********.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#39 - 2012-03-07 04:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
The problem with the OP's point is that he assumes battleships were used in small gangs BEFORE crucible. They weren't. For the past few years, small gangs (not large sov fleets) used BC's and ahac's and smaller stuff. T3 BC's didn't decrease small gang BS usage because BS weren't used by small gangs in the first place.

If anything, T3 BC's hurt HAC usage, but that is another topic. BS aren't used in smaller gangs because they aren't mobile enough to run away from bigger gangs. Simple as that. And that's OK. BS are slowish tanky damage boats (Ignoring the Mach). That's their role. You don't see Dreads in small gangs either. And that's okay too.
Stabs McShiv
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-03-07 12:36:42 UTC
Tier 3s work well with nano/sniper gangs and with low mass battleship like dps fleets that wont wreck a wormhole. Alpha pops them easy so they do not replace bs in the fights where ehp and logi matters working as intended imo.
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