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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1101 - 2012-03-07 11:03:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
So frigs 4 -> cruisers 4 -> BS 4 ~ frigs 4 -> dessies 4 -> Cruisers 4 -> BC 4 -> BS 4?

Sure doesn't look like almost twice the training to me Roll
Sure doesn't, largely because you forgot to add the things that actually take time when you cross-train. The difference is a few days, which is very little compared to the month you describe, which comes from having to learn new weapons, new tanks, new ewar — the basic ship skills are a very small part of the cross-training slog.

So let's fix that list:

Frigs IV + Cruiser IV + BS IV + Small Guns + Medium Guns + Large Guns + Tank + EWar ~ Frigs IV + Dessy IV + Cruiser IV + BC IV + BS IV + Small Guns + Medium Guns + Large Guns + Tank + EWar. A far cry from twice the training time.
You retrain your tank and ewar skills everytime you crosstrain somehow?
Quote:
As pointed out, this change adds unnecessary crap that most people don't need and would never train for.
…while removing a whole lot more unnecessary crap that people don't want to train for and which sits in the way of people specialising earlier. With those silly prereqs out of the way, you can get further faster.[/quote]If youa re crosstraining, you already have the support skills to specialize.

Quote:
Do you know how hard it can be to get people to crosstrain as it is with just a few simple skills? It will be much harder if we have to say 'Train everything minmatar so you can fly this one ship required by the alliance' than it is now to say 'grab frigs, cruisers, and BS, plus a couple gun skills'
Since all it is is two more skills that are done away with in very short order (and one of which is very popular for personal use), any added difficulty rather suggest a problem with your leadership…[/quote]
Its a mechanics problem. Doctrine Fleets will always follow a FOTM pattern. When CFC switched from drakefleet to alphafleet, people screamed and yelled over it. When you don't use fleet doctrine, first enemy to come along who does kills you.

And I must ask, which skill is popular for personal use? BC? Because as it stand people usually use their normal races BC(I love myrms) or the hurricane they picked up training for alphafleet. If you mean Dessie, I know VERY few people who use any dessie other than the thrasher, and most of them trained dessie just so they could fly dictor.

I know they are used alot in low/highsec gangs, but thats hardly the type of player I am thinking about. I am thinking of the thousands of nullsec grunts who have to deal with this every time ships are rebalanced.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1102 - 2012-03-07 11:04:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Mikron Alexarr wrote:


Yes, flexibility is the point here. Leave the ships to be flexible without specializing them so much that they have only one viable role. Tech 3 ships are wildly popular, because they follow this philosophy.

The cormy was a good salvager for me, because I had that racial frigate at the time and I think it had good fitting for salvage tackle. It's been awhile though.



Problem with T1 small ships is that they are just way too limited in overall capacity to be decent jack-of-all-trades. Giving the T1 EWAR frigs combat abilities means that their EWAR needs to be gimped to not make them totally OP- which makes them suck in the ewar role. Same goes for cruisers, for example Exequror stinks as logi and as combat ship.

Disclaimer: I'm aware of execptions, I've flown the Celestis a lot. There are still 10 sucky ships to every exception, and it's because they try to be a little bit of everything, and end up with not much of anything.

I like the idea of higher specialisation as a remedy to the unused hulls, and increasing training times for the T2 versions. This could result in more funky ships like Celestises, Blackbirds and Ospreys fielded as role-ships. Making these into general combat ships is boring imo and also much harder to balance.

.
Miura Bull
Screaming Hayabusa
#1103 - 2012-03-07 11:09:41 UTC
Umm. Is this a troll?
leich
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#1104 - 2012-03-07 11:09:59 UTC
They have mentioned skill reinbursement for people who already have BC skills

what about char that dont have BC skills but now due to the stupid changes require them like Nyx holding alts.
Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
#1105 - 2012-03-07 11:15:48 UTC
leich wrote:
They have mentioned skill reinbursement for people who already have BC skills

what about char that dont have BC skills but now due to the stupid changes require them like Nyx holding alts.




BC 4 wouldn't be required to pilot Nyx. it would only be required to *train* Nyx skills.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1106 - 2012-03-07 11:19:39 UTC
I thinked over it.

This is not a bad idea. There is some pitfalls ofc involved but with careful navigation this might work out well.

So in a nutshell it would mean that Destroyer, Battlecruiser, Interceptor, Interdictor, HAC, command ship, Logi, etc skills would just converted flatly into the new racial variants (in effect granting these with those skills 3x SP boost over the current number in these skills) and to train these skills the new prerequisties would be presented. Could you please also convert clones automatically one tick up if this change would push pilots over the current clone limit.

Pre requisites are not needed to fly the ships. Unless they are attached to hull itself. I remeber when the skill to control POS guns was changed. It used to be x4 rank skill that did nothing and it changed to x7 skill that allows one to control POS guns. At that time I lacked the new prerequistite (Anchoring 5), but as I had the "old" skill at lev 2 I ended up with new skill at lev 1 and could still control a single POS gun a day one even if I lacked the pre requisties to train the skill any higher. Had to do Anchoring 5 to be able to start training the skill.

In a nutshell its similar to how things go if you get podded and lose some SP in a skill that is pre requisite for training the skill for the ship you usually fly, but which is not actually needed for sitting in that hull.

As far as the ship changes go I'll hold my judgement until I see the changes.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Echo Mande
#1107 - 2012-03-07 11:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Echo Mande
Jagga Spikes wrote:
leich wrote:
They have mentioned skill reinbursement for people who already have BC skills

what about char that dont have BC skills but now due to the stupid changes require them like Nyx holding alts.



BC 4 wouldn't be required to pilot Nyx. it would only be required to *train* Nyx skills.


From my reading I would put it a bit different. Prerequisites are only required to *inject* a skill. So a Nyx alt would AFAIK only need BC skill to inject Nyx skills requiring BC skill. I'll admit it's been a theoretical issue for me though.

Wallet remarks everywhere
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#1108 - 2012-03-07 11:27:06 UTC
Quote:
Or the Gallente drone and dampening abilities stop with the Exequror?
Well that certainly explains why Gallente has been so f'd-up for so long... Honestly CCP. I resub with the hopes that you're finally figuring #$^! out and fixing your game. And then you give us comments like this? Christ.
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#1109 - 2012-03-07 11:27:30 UTC
To all people saying " ccp said bc skill point will be refounded " i ask:
Why should i train racial bc to V, read again FIVE, to max ships i've already maxed?
If someone can fly only lets say cyclone, cane and tornado the bc V refound will cover minmatar bc V, but for the people who crosstrained it's not enough. We have 1 bc V refound and 4 racial bc skill to train, anybody can see the difference???
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1110 - 2012-03-07 11:27:32 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
You retrain your tank and ewar skills everytime you crosstrain somehow?
I had to retrain my tank at least once, since there are two tanking style, and yes, each race has its own ewar speciality… and if we were talking about T2 ships rather than just T1, I'd add the entire leadership branch for each race as well.

Quote:
If youa re crosstraining, you already have the support skills to specialize.
I'm not talking about the support skills — I'm talking about the role skills, which will no longer be needed when you skip between sizes and tiers. Want to specialise in HACs? Now you can specialise in HACs without having to bother with AFs (and with AFs out of the way, you don't feel you're wasting SP by not training Frigates V). Want to specialise in command ships? Now you can specialise in command ships without having to bother with AFs, HAC, and Logistics (and with those out of the way, you don't feel you're wasting SP by not training Frigates and Cruisers V). So: you can specialise earlier; you get further faster.

Quote:
Its a mechanics problem. Doctrine Fleets will always follow a FOTM pattern.
…and now that the FOTM pattern changes, the doctrines will follow. The problem will solve itself.

Quote:
And I must ask, which skill is popular for personal use? BC?
Yup. If you get the weapons for it (which you do when you cross-train) the BC skill is pretty much never wasted.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1111 - 2012-03-07 11:29:55 UTC
Giullare wrote:
To all people saying " ccp said bc skill point will be refounded " i ask:
Why should i train racial bc to V, read again FIVE, to max ships i've already maxed?
If someone can fly only lets say cyclone, cane and tornado the bc V refound will cover minmatar bc V, but for the people who crosstrained it's not enough. We have 1 bc V refound and 4 racial bc skill to train, anybody can see the difference???


Go read the links from the first post.

Specifically https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=900335#post900335

Quote:

Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
#1112 - 2012-03-07 11:35:54 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Giullare wrote:
To all people saying " ccp said bc skill point will be refounded " i ask:
Why should i train racial bc to V, read again FIVE, to max ships i've already maxed?
If someone can fly only lets say cyclone, cane and tornado the bc V refound will cover minmatar bc V, but for the people who crosstrained it's not enough. We have 1 bc V refound and 4 racial bc skill to train, anybody can see the difference???


Go read the links from the first post.

Specifically https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=900335#post900335

Quote:

Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.


Malcanis Law at work :)
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#1113 - 2012-03-07 11:36:09 UTC
The Devblog says T1 ships will need the lower class skills at 4 and T2 ships will need it at 5; does that mean Orca requirements will be lowered to Mining Barge 4 while JF will be upped to Freighter V ?
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1114 - 2012-03-07 11:42:29 UTC
is bs 5 getting refunded as its not needed for cap pilots?
RaTTuS
BIG
#1115 - 2012-03-07 11:47:01 UTC
I generally like but I'd would suggest that BS5 is kept for capitals

http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://i.imgur.com/kYLoKrM.png

Carmizan
Lords of Maelstrom
#1116 - 2012-03-07 11:56:10 UTC
TBH i am not worried about the skill point reimbursement if what they say they do ie if your have BC to lvl5 now you will get all 4 racial BC skills to lvl 5.

The one concern i have with this is the increase in SP that could take most if not all the pilots that have these ships crossed trained over their clone's SP limit and bearing in mind te pilots that would be in WH space and unable to ject to a station to upgrade.

Will CCP be looking into this issue at the same time?
Tub Chil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1117 - 2012-03-07 11:56:46 UTC
removing common battlecruiser skill is a horrible idea. removing tiers is great, nobody will argue with that
Grikath
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1118 - 2012-03-07 11:59:05 UTC
Katarina Reid wrote:
is bs 5 getting refunded as its not needed for cap pilots?


Why would they refund BS V? That one is already racial, and in the new scheme would give access to the T2 BS.
I see no "waste" SP there to be refunded.

Highsec isn't "Safe".  Neither is it a playground for bullies and bottomfeeders. So stop complaining and start playing the game already.
Ryoko Matsu
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1119 - 2012-03-07 12:02:29 UTC
*\o/*

great news about dropping the tier system!

also no problem regarding the "new" skill system...

but:
the policy "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today"
in general what do you intend here?

let´s say i have BC5
will that change to let´s say Amarr BC 5
and the rest on 3 (to fly all the tiers)

or will the reimbursement so that i can fly all racial BC at 5? (having the prerequs...)

just wondering...
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1120 - 2012-03-07 12:05:52 UTC
Ryoko Matsu wrote:
*\o/*

great news about dropping the tier system!

also no problem regarding the "new" skill system...

but:
the policy "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today"
in general what do you intend here?

let´s say i have BC5
will that change to let´s say Amarr BC 5
and the rest on 3 (to fly all the tiers)

or will the reimbursement so that i can fly all racial BC at 5? (having the prerequs...)

just wondering...


Go read the first post. Go to the third link on the first post. Profit.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter